JINGLE Two Oceans Live Radio. SA’s number one digital station. Two Oceans Live Radio
MARK BAYLY Well as promised we have a fairly controversial figure in the studio right now. His name is Stephen Birch. He’s a South African and, err, he is variously accused of being a trouble-maker or some people would call him a crusader. We’re all fascinated by the Madeleine McCann story. Its now, I think its five years later. Ermm, and errr, yeah he’s trying to champion the cause and actually put the case to rest and find the body. Stephen welcome to Two Oceans Live.
STEPHEN BIRCH Thanks, Mark. Thanks for having me.
MB Now Stephen you’re a South African guy, you’re in the building industry. How do you get to a position where you take two years off of work, erm, in this quest? How did this case touch you in such a way that you, that you’re making this degree of a sacrifice?
SB Well, you know, its not something that, that one plans. It was a natural progression. Erm, initially the case was introduced to me. I was told about the case one evening and erm, then I happened to see a Youtube video of Madeleine with her siblings, Sean and Amelie and, err, something about the little girl touched me and I, I became interested in the case and then I looked at another Youtube video of erm, err, the head of the Portuguese Police, a gentleman by the name of Goncalo Amaral and there was a six-part Youtube video called ‘The Truth of the Lie’. And, er, it was in Portuguese with English subtitles and I watched it and I became intrigued. And erm, at the err, statements and the err, degree of complexity that the case had developed into.
MB Now straight off the bat I want to ask you and I, I know that you are certainly not alone in this. It became a worldwide phenomenon and probably still is. But why do you think this case; there are so many children that go missing in the world on a daily basis, why do you think this case is so special? Is it because she was so cute?
SB Ermm. Well certainly the, the profile of the parents being both professional, er, good-looking, athletic people and erm, their daughter being a really pretty little girl helped erm, in the erm, in the media erm, or the, the way the story was, was projected worldwide. Erm, er, a lot of people ask me that question, erm, I also believe that erm, there’s a very strong media contingent coming out of the UK. And erm, with Madeleine being of British descent, I’m err, sure, err, it really helped the cause.
MB Now, I mean it is a mystery that persists to this day. Now your involvement in this, obviously you said initially its just something that touched you. But how does that translate into what some people are now calling an obsession? I mean there are a lot of, er, crackpots out there, there are a lot of people saying “This is what I think happened.”. Erm, how do you defend yourself against those kind of, because I mean you know that you’re facing that. How do you defend yourself against those kind of claims?
SB I don’t think you can really defend yourself. I think at the end of the day, you know, I grew up in a middle class family. And, err, one of the things that I, that I, we didn’t have it easy as children. And erm. one of the things that, err, my late dad taught me was that if you start something finish it. Erm, you know I’ve, I’ve done a lot of things in my life, erm, which have been very difficult tasks. I haven’t had an easy life. And its probably built character and, erm, for me its about, er, if you start a particular project, erm, finish it. Ermm, there’s a price to pay for it but, erm, if you start something make it happen and, erm, stay focussed and don’t get sidetracked.
MB Now the price that you paid for it. You’ve said that you took two years off and you need to start getting your nose to the grindstone again to, to get some cash in. Erm, how else has it affected you?
SB Well its isolated me because, erm, to a large extent, er, er, a case of this size and magnitude is all encompassing. At one stage I was working seven days a week, fourteen hours a day, erm, analysing every single detail of the case. I must say that I’ve been told that I have extreme attention to detail. It is one of the characteristics that I have. And having just finished four major supreme court matters prior to me starting the case helped me with my ability to be able to analyse large volumes of, erm, details and paper. Its a mindset, and its er, so the four years I spent in the high court certainly conditioned my mind to be able to deal with very specific facts and details that maybe somebody else would, er, gloss over.
MB OK. Now you, you are claiming, erm, to have found a burial site. Its not 100% that its Madeleine but you are saying that its worth looking because why not?
SB Erm, thats correct. I mean, you know, erm, for me, I’ve believe the crime occurred in Praia da Luz. Err, its not a worldwide crime. Its a localized crime, erm, and all the evidence points to the fact that the remains of Madeleine McCann remain buried in Praia da Luz. As much as people, er, don’t want to believe it and, er, would like to believe that she’s alive and possibly in Scotland or England or on a plane to Germany the remains of that little girl remain buried in Praia da Luz. And erm, er, its a simple as that. Its actually quite a simple crime.
MB How did you, how have you discovered what erm, trained experts in forensics and everything else weren’t able to do? What have you done that they couldn’t?
SB Well first of all, I’m not a forensic expert so the findings of Dr. Goncalo Amaral, I had to adopt those findings that occurred in the flat. For me to go out and say that, erm, that I have an extensive knowledge on what occurred in flat 5A in the Ocean Club where, where, erm, from where Madeleine disappeared, erm, is, is crazy. My, my focus was totally on the fact, (clears throat), on what happened to Madeleine after she, er, was taken or after she was removed from that flat. So, to a large extent initially the ground work was done by the Portuguese police. There’s a tremendous amount of work having been done by the Portuguese police and had those findings not been made public I probably wouldn’t have been able to solve this crime.
MB OK. Now, now you say, “solved this crime.” Her parents are still claiming that she’s alive. Without implicating yourself in anything what is, err, to the people who are like-minded as you are that she is buried somewhere, erm, what is your interepretation of what happened that night? Because I mean thats what people want to know. If she isn’t alive how do you know? How did events occur that night?
SB Well, erm, I believe that Madeleine died first of all in the flat by accident. There is sufficient proof that the little girl climbed up a couch and fell over the back of the couch and possibly broke her neck. Erm, the forensics show that there were, there was blood spatter behind the couch. Erm, and, erm, there were various other sightings that occurred in and around Praia da Luz within specific time frames that lead me to believe, erm, that she is buried in Praia da Luz. Erm, the first thing that I did was, when I started the investigation I created a hypothesis. Erm, having limited financial resources and being only one person I needed to create a hypothesis, erm, and I felt that if I wasn’t able to prove the hypothesis I would withdraw from the case.
Erm, taking a motor vehicle out of an equation that this is a localized crime and that the crime occurred within walking distance, suddenly time becomes very relevant, every minute, every five minutes, every three minutes. And one can start mapping and you can layer certain things on top of each other.
MB Now I just want to interrupt you there. You say taking a motor vehicle out of the equation but there was blood that was found, I understand that there was blood that was found in the boot of their hired car.
SB Well, you know, I think thats where, erm, know thats where, err, erm, Goncalo Amaral, the head of the Portuguese police made his biggest mistake. I remember standing at the, erm, Lisboa, Lisbon airport and telling the reporter that I agree with ermm, Mr. Amaral in his findings, but (laughs) I’d just had quite a long flight and one of the things where Mr. Amaral and myself differ is that I’ve said from the onset that Madeleine, she died on the 3rd of May and she was buried on the 3rd of May. The DNA evidence that was found in the McCann hire car, the Scenic, that vehicle was only hired 25 days after Madeleine went missing and its my belief that the Portuguese police or if you let me go back, the frustrated Portuguese police planted DNA evidence in that motor vehicle, erm, trying to pin the case on the McCanns. They believe that the infant was buried in or around the area and being frustrated, they went and planted DNA evidence in that motor vehicle.
MB So that was a red herring?
SB Most definitely.
MB And would they have used the blood they found behind the couch for that? I mean, was it hers?
SB Well, one can only speculate. I have a certain theory on how they got hold of that DNA. I am also in discussions with certain people who are assisting me with regard to that finding. I can’t go into that discussion at the moment. Erm, but the planting of the DNA by the Portuguese police immediately created a diplomatic crisis. Erm, the, the British stepped in. Their agents, erm, established that the DNA was planted and both presidents at that time it was, sorry both Prime Ministers, I believe Gordon Brown and Jose Socrates of Portugal got together and decided to close the case prematurely fifteen months after… I’m under correction but I think the case closed in June of 2008, erm, er, erm, Franc…., er, Fernando Pinto Monterio (sic), the, er, Attorney General for Portugal, erm, er, shut the case immediately.
MB Why, why would they do that? Why would that be in their interest to shut it down?
SB Well, you, you have a very, very, erm, sensitive situation developing where you have Portuguese police planting DNA, erm, you have the, erm, Portuguese telling the British, er, er, that they believe that their citizen has planted…, has buried their child in or around in the area. So you have a very heated situation developing. Portugal has, er, a long, er, er, history with England. Its a very good history. Er, it dates back to 1388 when Spain wanted to invade Portugal, er, the king of Portugal went to England, France and Holland at the time and formed allies with those three countries to protect Portugal. Today the French, English allegiance still exists. There’s a lot of trade between the two countries. You have the British coming down to the Algarve area spending a tremendous amount of money on holidays and on accommodation and on tourism and you have the Portuguese acquiring British and French motor vehicles. I remember seeing a lot of Renault vehicles which we don’t even get in our country. So there, so there is a very, very close relationship between the countries and to have er, erm a situation like this develop, there’s, its not in the interest of the country, certainly not.
MB So just backtracking slightly. The people like you who believe that she fell off the back of a couch and broke her neck. Erm, as her body hasn’t been found, what is that based on? What is that assessment of the blood spatter? Is that consistent with somebody breaking their neck? I mean you could break your neck and have no blood.
SB Well, the…. As I said to you before, what occurred inside that flat, I er, that apartment I can’t really comment on. I had to adopt the findings of, of Mr. Amaral. Erm…
MB And was that, was that his findings that she’d fallen and broken her neck?
SB That was, those were his findings and a group of detectives who I believe were very competent and seasoned investigators. So, erm, it, it is very possible that some, that a young child falling forward and smashing or snapping her head, that blood could have lodged from her nasal cavity and, and er, er, erm, and appeared on, on the wall. And, and, you know, I, I wasn’t in the apartment so I have to adopt those findings.
MB OK. Now lets jump ahead a little bit. There, there’s extensive searching for the body. Nothing is found. Erm, you then, I believe, erm, learnt about some very, very advanced technological equipment for searching the ground sort of… Tell me, tell me about how you went into that and how you went and actually searched because I believe you didn’t get permission first. It was a bit of a trespass from what I understand and what I’ve read. Erm, (both laugh) bit of casing the joint and a bit of going in and doing a bit of your own research. How did that happen?
SB Well, when I was back in South Africa after having completed my investigation and having come to my findings that the child could only be buried in two places, one in the Murat property or two in the botanical gardens. Both were within the time frames and within close proximity to the apartment. Erm, I then consulted with somebody who, who advised me that I needed to be able to use ground-penetrating radar equipment. Erm, I got hold of an expert in the field and this person trained me on how to use whats called a Mala Ground-penetrating radar machine. The machine, the equipment, er, well Mala is a very well-known company. Its been around since the early Forties. Erm, and its, there is, there are many companies that make ground-penetrating equipment, er, but Mala certainly is, is the leader in the market and, erm I was taught for a period of two months how to locate bodies. I took the machine to the Clapments Graveyard [See transcriber note below] where I underwent training on how to identify bodies. I eventually became so good that within half an hour I could locate 22 bodies beneath the ground, between an area I’ll say, at a depth of between 2 and 2 and a half metres. So, yeah, it was part of my training.
Transcriber Notes: [no graveyard with a similar name appears on Cape Town graveyard map http://www.capetown.gov.za/en/parks/Documents/City_Parks_cemeteries_map.pdf ]
MB Is it, does it look similar to those guys you see walking along the beach finding coins and stuff or…
SB No. You do get equipment like that but unfortunately that equipment doesn’t go down to three metres and the Mala, a Mala ground-penetrating machine is very similar to an average garden lawn mower. It has wheels, it has a base. It has handle bars and it has a LED screen which is, which is connected to a battery pack and, er, and, erm, a scanner which is housed between the wheels.
MB OK, so you fly over to Portugal with this in your luggage? Erm, that must have raised some, er, some eyebrows at Customs?
SB Well, no, in actual fact what I first did was, erm, through, er, a South African connection, I hired the machine via London. (MB Oh right!) And not having an EU passport I couldn’t fly with this type of equipment. If you imagine arriving at the airport with a 120,000 rand ground-penetrating radar machine and the Customs gentleman says to you, “What’s the purpose of your visit?” and you say, “Well, I’m here on holiday.” No, I first flew to London on the 14th and 15th where I paid for the hire of the machine. Luckily for me the gentleman in London, er, I was, er, the South African gentleman, erm, vouched for me and he’d already sent the machine by DHL from London to Praia da Luz. And I was very happy about that because by the time that I got to Praia da Luz the machine was already there. So all I did was I paid him for the hire of the machine. Err, it was £350 per day. It cost me about 18,500 Rand for three days. And, erm, then, erm, I spent two days in London meeting with my attorneys from DLA Piper, certainly one of the biggest, erm, legal firms in the UK. And then on the, on the 16th, the morning of the 16th I flew out of Heathrow to Lisbon where I met my crew flying up from South Africa with, erm, more equipment. We brought in a Rotheburg (??) underground camera and we brought in surveillance equipment. In hindsight I =was sorry that we couldn’t have brought other equipment. We did bring in other little cameras and stuff which we still have some in place. Erm, but we would have liked to bring in more equipment but it would have been a problem getting it through Customs and, erm, so, er, well in future if we ever do an operation like this again we’ll DHL everything in advance.
MB OK, so you’re, you’re there. You’ve got the equipment. Erm, you don’t get permission? Was it a bit of a, bit of a night-time mission?
SB Well, let me first tell you that the two weeks were probably the most nerve-wracking of my entire life. It was… People think its a holiday. It was a very nerve-wracking experience. The first four days we… Well, I had booked an apartment called Fuji Palms 10. I knew that Fuji Palms 10 looks straight into the Murat property. It was on the second floor. So, erm, by the time that we got there and we took occupation of our apartment we were able to do surveillance through the bedroom window and out the balcony which covered the side street that provided the access or the entry point to the Murat property. And the first thing we did was we set up time-lapse cameras which basically takes photographs every second and we were able to see the comings and goings of the inhabitants of that house. Erm, Mr. Robert Murat who initially lived there and was the initial arguido, erm, doesn’t live there. He’s living in Lagos with his son who is two years old and his wife Michaela and her child from her previous marriage. There are, errr, Robert’s mother stays with some people in their house; Jenny Murat. She, at the time, was 71 when Madeleine went missing. Today she’s 76, still fit and walks around, yeah.
MB So you waited for an opportunity when you knew the coast was clear? You go in to the property with your equipment and you claim to have found an area where, err, you can see that some excavation was done and that there are some bones, some remains although its not absolutely clear from the equipment what that is. You, this is… I mean, correct me if I’m wrong. You then report this. You send your findings through. Why have they not dug it up, if, if your claims are as strong as they seem to be, why have the Portuguese authorities who were so frustrated by not finding the remains; why have they not instituted a search?
SB OK. Well, let me first go, let me first go back one little step. And that is we didn’t go into the property once. We went into the property four times, ermm (laughs). I…
MB I was trying to help you out there.
SB (Laughs again) Yeah, sorry, if I’m going to go to jail, I’m going to go to jail. We went into the property four times. Erm, and a tremendous amount of time was spent configuring the machine and getting the machine to be entirely accurate; so much so that the findings were, and the configuration and the settings (what we call the hyperbole on the machine) was very, very accurate. So, erm, the scanning occurred between five o’clock and six o’clock in the morning with me first scanning in one particular direction and then scanning perpendicular in the other direction so we got a full grid of that entire driveway. Those findings were sent first to South Africa and then to the UK, er, where specialists confirmed that something definitely lies buried beneath that driveway. Initially, before we went to Portugal, I conducted certain tests on a farm outside Cape Town where ground conditions were very similar to that in Portugal. I had had photographs of the ground conditions in Portugal sent through to me, erm, and its, very similar to what we call ‘coffee clip’ yeah. And, erm, doing tests and we got, I got an employee of me, of mine to dig a hole within a fifteen minute period which is the period that I believe that the child, that the hole was dug. And we only got to a depth of 450mm which is not very deep, its less than half a metre. So we knew going to Portugal that, that the, we knew that going to Portugal the, ermm, the hole, errrr, the grave was 450mm deep. What we didn’t know was how deep was the top soil on top of. And we estimated there’d be between, say, 150 and 250 mils. So if you take 150mm to 250mm and you put that on top of 450mm you’re looking for a hole or a cavity 650mm below that driveway and thats exactly what we found.
MB Now, when you say drive way, what is it composed of? Is it just, is it just soil and rock or is it… Its not paved so you wouldn’t be able to see where any area was dug up, its just ground?
SB Well, the drive way in itself is suspicious and I’ll tell you what its made… what its constructed of. Its basically a small retaining brick wall and it has gravel on top of it, what we call G5 or your normal gravel driveway. Whats interesting about the gravel is that I initially cleared the stone away with my hand and tried to dig and on the fourth, on the fourth time I went into the property, I tried to excavate to get to the body and I hit a small layer of tar which is very hard, which I find very unusual to have a layer of tar underneath a gravel driveway. So we don’t have a cement drive way or a brick drive way as was incorrectly reported in the press. We have a simple little gravel drive way. What is interesting about this particular drive way is that on the northern side of the property there is a massive drive way which is paved with four parking garages or two parking garages and two car ports. And the interesting thing is that, that Robert Murat’s mother, Jenny Murat doesn’t drive a car. So here you have a massive drive way on the northern side, on the front door of the property, four garages, an old lady who doesn’t drive a motor vehicle and suddenly you get a new drive way, a small, little drive way where you can hardly turn a vehicle, being constructed a year after Madeleine disappears, out of gravel. And its that particular drive way that pricked my interest.
MB So, so subsequent to her being buried that area above where she is supposedly buried has been tarred and then gravel put on top of it?
MB And thats all happened since then?
SB Well, I believe that that drive way occurred sometime in, that drive way was manufactured some time in 2008. There was a hole knocked in the wall at the back of the property to provide new entrance gates to this drive way but at the time when the police searched the property there was no gates on the back of the property and there was no drive way.
MB OK. Before we take a quick break for the music, why aren’t the Portuguese police excavating it?
SB I, I believe that the Portuguese police now know that Madeleine is buried there and, er, this is a diplomatic crisis for them.
MB Something I’d like to ask you about is the, is the, from what I’ve read as well on the back of this is that the McCann family… There are conflicting things. It was like… It seemed that they’d directed the Portuguese police in the direction of the Murat residence and almost blaming Mr. Murat for being the abductor. But there’s the flip side of that where they’re saying that she’s still alive. Erm, those two don’t really go together do they?
SB Well, its a natural… Its time thats elapsed. And its, er, I’ve got to be very careful what I say here. I don’t want to get, ermm, a libel case against myself. I believe the McCanns are taking legal action against quite a few people. Erm, a representative of the McCanns PR company threatened a reporter that did a story on me for the Huffington Post. Erm, so I’ve got to be very, very careful what I say. What I want to say is that the Tapas 9, being the group comprising Kate and Gerry McCann and their friends, felt that, whether its true or not, that Mr. Robert Murat had something to do with the abduction. Kate Murat, sorry Kate McCann wrote in her diary six months after Robert Murat had been cleared that she felt that this man had something to do with the abduction of her child. Jayne Tanner a friend of, the wife of Dr. Russell, err, sorry, Dr. Russell, erm, his name’s crossed my mind now, ermm, Russell O’Brien, erm, stated to the police that Robert Murat was the abductor. The police as a result of the statements made by the Tapas 9 felt it necessary to go and search the entire Murat property. Erm, I have my theory as to, erm, what occurred. They went through the entire property. They searched the yard. They went into the basement. They found Roman ruins. They pumped all the water out of the swimming pool. Erm, they went through, er, Robert Murat’s computer. I personally, believe they missed the child. They missed the child by sixty centimetres. Not difficult in a yard that big. The property’s thirty six metres by about twenty four metres. The back of the property, its heavily overgrown at that particular stage and it would be very easy for them to miss a child 90cm tall, folded in half 45cm. They initially went in on a Sunday evening and if I was a government employee working for the police I wouldn’t be that keen on a Sunday evening to take a spade and start digging. And, er, they then went in on the Monday. I know that Sunday it had rained. So I think and this is what I really, really believe is that the Portuguese police went into that yard and missed the child in the yard. As a result of them missing the child, Robert Murat was cleared as an arguido which is the Portuguese word for, erm, suspect. He got paid £600,000 [transcriber note: last phrase heavily emphasised] by Sky News. The McCanns, ermm, received money from various newspapers which they took legal action against for falsely accusing them. Erm, their fund has grown significally, signifcantly in wealth. The funds called the, err, No Stones Unturned and Kate has sold in excess of 350,000 books, ermm, called ‘Madeleine’. The books called ‘Madeleine’. I believe there might be a second book in the making. So as a result of the police having missed the, erm, the child everybodys got rich. Erm and their, even their, even members of the Tapas 9 have been paid out money. I don’t know… They’ve made statements that they’ve paid the money to the McCanns, to the Madeleine foundation. I don’t know if they’ve kept the money or not kept the money but the McCanns have become a household name. They’ve been put on the front page of every, single newspaper in the UK and certainly as a selling item for the Sun newspaper and for the Rupert Murdoch group they’ve been a very, very great asset.
MB Let me just sum up, the, the cause of events as you possibly believe they happened. They went out to dinner. They left the kids in the apartment. Ermm, Madeleine might have had some degree of sedation. Ermm, for whatever reason she climbs up onto the back of the couch, falls. breaks her neck an dies. So there’s at no point in your theory is there foul play in causing her death? So she falls, she breaks her neck. They then need to cover up this occurrence because it shows gross negligence on their part. So having somebody abduct the child is better than having her fall and breaking her neck? Ermm, her father takes her, runs down the road to the Murat residence which is nearby, buries her. Then, when the search starts they direct the Portuguese police to that property hoping that she will be found; the body will be found, which will then close the case and the guilt would fall on Murat? And if he goes to prison thats fine. They weren’t worried about that. They were worried about her being found. Close the case. Go back to England. Is that, sort of in a nutshell the theory.
SB (Laughing) Mark, I’m not gonna comment.
MN OK. I’m just putting the puzzle pieces out there and I’m trying to create a picture of that. Ermm. OK, we’ll move on from that then. The Portuguese authorities, thats what we touched on just before we took a music break. The Portuguese authorities have this information from you. They haven’t acted on it yet. Erm, because its a diplomatic issue or….
SB Its a massive diplomatic issue. Let me tell you the extent to which I have gone. First of all I’ve… The Portuguese police have been instructed not to talk to me under any circumstances from Dr. Ana Paula Rita [??] to Manuala Santos [??] to the Attorney General to the President of the Algarve, Dr. Julia Barroso [??] to the Prime Minister that I’ve written to. I’ve written to the President, the Prime Minister, the entire cabinet, the Attorney General, the Minister, the Justice Minster, the… And I’ve been on the front page of the biggest newspaper Correia de Manhu [?? Correia da Manha] five times. Now its been 60 days since my findings. We have a simple gravel drive way over here and they’ve closed shop completely. I’ve got the Prime Minister having sent me a letter yesterday saying that the head of the Portuguese police are saying the err, err, the head of the Portuguese police are saying that they searched, that they searched the property using equipment from the University of Averi, Averio [?? Aveiro] which is completely a lie because I’ve got photos proving that they failed to search that particular property and it was impossible in that sector where Madeleine was buried to have, erm, actually used that equipment. And they have a big problem now because the Prime Minister now has a very, very big problem in having to deal with this lie and this cover-up and they’re actually sacrificing one of their own citizens which is Goncalo Amaral who’s currently in a major court battle with the McCanns at the moment who are suing him for 1.2 million pounds, a libel case, for his book ‘The Truth of the Lie’. So you have a situation over here where diplomatic relations with England become more important than the citizens of Portugal. And that for me is a big problem because when you don’t have justice then you don’t have a true sovereignty. And unless Portugal implement justice and get this child out the ground and run this case properly then Portugal is not a true sovereignty in my opinion.
MB If they don’t, whats next?
SB Well, err…
MB Are you gonna go and dig her up?
SB [Laughs] Well, err…
MB How far from that are you?
SB [Laughs] Mark, I’ll tell you after a couple of whiskies. What I will tell you is that in the coming… I have time on my side and time is a very dangerous thing. Because when you have time on your side and you have capabilities… I’m looking for people to come and join my, err, campaign. I have a Youtube video, Stephen Birch, Madeleine McCann, where my email address is and I’m looking for people to come and assist me in getting that Youtube video out to the UK because the UK have closed shop on that. I will spend, in time to come, millions of Rand in getting that Youtube video into the world to the various countries to inform them about this cover up because a, this cover up cannot continue. And when you have time on your side and you have ability and you have people that want the truth to come out… There are many people that are sitting at home that have had enough of this. They know the truth and they want the truth to be revealed and I’m sure there are some people out there… I’m hoping that there are a couple of people out there that’ll contact me and say, “Stephen, we’ll help you with your call to expose the truth.”
MB Surely it would cost less than several millions to buy the Murat house and excavate it yourself.
SB Ermm, many people have made that suggestion and I, I can assure you, Mr. Robert Murat will not sell me that property. I’ve already written to him asking him can I dig up his property and i… And his attorney, Mr. Pagarettas [?? Pagarete] has categorically told me that he won’t allow me near that property.
MB And they won’t sell.
SB They won’t sell.
MB The intrigue continues. Mr. Birch, thank you so much for coming and joining us. It is a fascinating story. You are in the middle of a campaign thats far from over. I wish you well with your endeavours and hopefully one day this can be put to rest.
SB Mark, thank you for having me.
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