Jayelles has highlighted something very important, and again it highlights the way that information that does not suit a particular agenda is omitted.
You know, don’t include that bit, because that will bugger up our agenda.
Truth doesn’t matter, just miss out the bits that don’t follow the ‘slay the McCanns at all costs’ mantra.
This is what Pat Brown said and this is what has been omitted:
For example we were talking about the McCanns, let’s say somebody decided to put the McCanss on trial right now I would be happy to defend the McCanns. Because there is reasonable doubt. I would say I would never convict the McCanns. Because I don’t have enough proof to say they are guilty of anything, there is a lot of reasonable doubt.
Well done Jayelles for picking this up, the full transcript of Jim Bohannon interview with Pat Brown that was aired on the 2nd of August 2011 will be made available later today, courtesy of Exposing the Myths.
Full Audio Interview
Many thanks to JayElles for this transcript.
Transcript of Pat Brown interview with Jim Bohannon
Please note that portions highlighted in RED have been omitted from anti-McCann poster Hi-de-ho’s transcription which is posted at gerrymccannsblogs and littlemorsals.
Jim Bohannon: Hello there and good evening and welcome to the Jim Bohannon show from Westwood One Radio. We’re at 186650-JIMBO. 18665054626 online you’ll find us at jimbotalk.net. Good to have you folks with us tonight and a welcome to a new member of the Jim Bohannon Show family of stations – Alternative Talk 1150 KKNW in Seattle. Thanks very much Eric Ryder for putting us on, we do appreciate that. We’ll find out Pat Brown is making a return visit to talk about her latest book; the difference tonight is that you may have trouble buying it. It’s an ebook called ‘Profile of the Disappearance of Madeleine McCann’. Till recently you could buy it from amazon.com but, er, no more. We understand that the book is available from Barnes & Noble online, with their initials BN.com for their Nook, enook reader. Pat Brown, er, two stories here I guess…number one: The story of Madeleine McCann. And number two: the story of you and er, and er amazon. Er look, for those, let’s just start at the beginning, what is the Profile of the Disappearance of Madeleine McCann all about, let’s assume the people have forgotten exactly who Madeleine McCann is.
Pat Brown: Right, er, Madeleine McCann was a little three year old girl who was on vacation with her parents, erm, Gerry and Kate McCann and their friends, seven of them, and there were also the brother and sister who were two years old and er, the McCanns and their friends had a habit of leaving the children unattended in their vacation apartments while they went over to the bar restaurant for a few hours every evening and, the last evening, Madeleine disappeared and she has not been seen since, it’s been four years now and no one knows what happened to Madeleine.
Jim Bohannon: now then you put together er, an ebook, a profile of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. Before we get into all that you have put forward, to posit about the disappearance, what happened with Amazon?
Pat Brown: Well, what happened was.(laughs) .. there’s a kind of controversy going on concerning the McCanns over the four years, er the controversy is” Did the McCanns have anything to do with the disappearance of their daughter or was the child abducted by some predator or child sex ring or somebody who wanted a little child”. Er, there’s two camps over this and there are a lot of suspicious circumstances, an abduction was never proved to have happened, so the McCanns became suspects in Portugal, what is called Arguidos, and then they left Portugal and since then they’ve been looking for their daughter and they, they, they established a fund to search for their daughter and this was all going quite well, er but when people started speaking up saying, “you know, some of us actually think that the parents might be involved”, they were shut down because the McCanns hired Carter Ruck, which is like the biggest libel solicitors in, I don’t…maybe the whole world, but certainly in Britain, and they would sort of stick this law firm on anybody who said, hey you know, I question whether they could be involved. They sued the detective on the case when he put his book out and got an injunction to get it off the market and so people have stopped speaking out whether, you know, about their opinions because they’re afraid of Carter Ruck, they’re , they’re , they’re going to get sued and so the media has no longer said anything negative about the McCanns, they never…they question nothing any more er, and so Kate just put out her book called ‘Madeleine’ and after I read her book I decided I would do what people wanted me to and put out a profile of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann and, put out a theory of what I think happened based on the evidence that exists. And I did so and about five weeks after I put it up on Amazon it vanished and it vanished off of amazon.com and amazon.co.uk, that’s the British one, and of, out of Germany as well. So it vanished everywhere and people said, “what happened to your, your, your er profile, your book?” And so I wrote to Amazon and said what happened? Where’d it go? And they said they took it off for legal conflicts and I said well what legal conflicts are you talking about, and they said, well we need you to change the title and all the contents (laughter)
Jim Bohannon: Otherwise it’s just what we were looking for.
Pat Brown: Exactly! and so I’m like okay, er do you want to explain this a little further? And then sent me the letter that said they had been received a er letter from Carter Ruck, the solicitors of Gerry and Kate McCann, who said I had libelled their clients and therefore until we worked it out, the McCanns and I, and agreed that the book was not libellous they were no longer going to sell it. So that’s when it disappeared off of the market
Jim Bohannon: Wow!
Pat Brown: yeah! That’s rather interesting.
Jim Bohannon: I, you know, I was trying to think of another instance of something similar to this and I’m at a loss, I er, I don’t really know of anything quite like this.
Pat Brown: Yeah, well I think this is kind of a new problem with the self publishing world, now I have two other books on the market published through…the last one came through Hyperion Voice and when I wrote that one which is called the Profile of My Life Hunting Serial Killers and Psychopaths, came out in 2010, I did a lot of cases in that book and before they published it, their lawyers went through it with a fine toothcomb, they made me turn over all my files so that they made sure that the book was acceptable and couldn’t risk…everybody can be sued over it… so when Amazon saw that they already had Hyperion Voice saying it’s an okay book because our lawyers have already been through it and besides, you’re not going to get sued, we will. But with self publishing, where’s the gate keeper? So Amazon’s like well, you know, your not, nobody’s looked over this book, there’s no publisher except you so quite frankly we’re running a business and we don’t want to take a chance with Carter Ruck. So it’s kinda funny people say when Carter Ruck comes after you, you’ve been ‘Carter-Rucked.’ (laughs_
Jim Bohannon: Interesting, so in this day and age what you’re essentially saying is that, that as we enter this whole new brave new world of the non ‘Gate Keepers’ that if you’ve got enough money and enough lawyers and a willingness to throw your weight around that you can essentially shut down your critics.
Pat Brown: Exactly and that’s what…that’s what’s been happening with the McCanns, they’ve effectively shut down anybody with an opinion that they do not like. And they don’t like mine.
Jim Bohannon: I er, I must tell you that I got an email.
Pat Brown: Yes you did, I’m sure
Jim Bohannon: I did, with a dot uk address attached to it…errrr…
Pat Brown: Mmm?
Jim Bohannon: [quoting part of the email]: “ …Please be aware that the ebook Ms Brown is promoting is full of misinformation, contradictions and an imagined scenario. Ms Brown has a well known dislike of the McCanns, particularly Kate McCann, and for the past four years has made regular inappropriate and acidic comments about them on social networking sites”
Pat Brown: Well that’s actually accurate (laughs). Sometimes you can’t disagree with people who hate you. But yes, I have blogged for four years. I have a blog called the Daily Profiler, it’s not very daily any more because I’m too busy but it’s more a monthly profiler I think now but I haven’t changed the name, er but I often talk about cases like I do when I do television, I do commentary, and I analyse different cases and I try to stick with…look at the evidence and here’s what I’m thinking and I try to put it, I always say it’s a theory, this is not fact, this is theory which is what all profiling is and it doesn’t say anybody’s guilty of anything. Yes, I have been fairly critical because from the very beginning there was something rather peculiar about the story and of course it starts with leaving three little children alone in an apartment unattended, which is called child neglect, so it’s kind of hard to be nice about that in my opinion.
Jim Bohannon: Well, it, it is hard I suppose to do that …er…among other things this email er they claim that your book is done in an effort to convince people that Madeleine is dead.
Pat Brown: Well I…would (laughs)
Jim Bohannon: What are the odds? What are the odds?
Pat Brown: Well this is kinda funny because on a very sad way, one of the reasons Kate McCann supposedly sues people is because she says no one has the right to say Madeleine is dead because that keeps people from looking for her, which sounds like, you know, if you’re a mother you can sorta see where she’s coming from. But the fact is, the chances of Madeleine being alive – even if she didn’t die of an accident in the apartment which is what the police believe and what I think the evidence lends to, er, she would likely be dead because if she was abducted by somebody it would be like a sex predator, a child sex predator and they usually kill a child within an hour, and the concept that a child is going to be targeted to go into a sex ring and be taken around the world is not very likely, and on top of it the McCanns put together a campaign which featured her… the eye defect that Madeleine has… which is called a coloboma, which is, you know which is kind of a defect in the eye, a dark line coming out of the pupil. They put that as part of their publicity, well you know if I were a child kidnapper and I had this kid with this very obvious defect I’d get rid of the child very quickly because she could be identified so …
Jim Bohannon: Easily identified…
Pat Brown: If she wasn’t dead, you’re going to make her dead by doing that.
Jim Bohannon: So experience, experience alone simply tells you that..that there’s no point in lying to anybody, least of all the parents.
Pat Brown: Now, Elizabeth Smart did show up, Jaycee Dugard did show up and so everybody hangs on that, but you know resource wise, you cannot spend millions and millions of dollars on a child that is likely not to be alive. You can go look for who killed her but you know, you gotta be, you gotta be rational with your resources.
Jim Bohannon: More to come as we continue our discussion with repeat guest Pat Brown. She is of course the founder of the Pat brown Profiling Agency – Pat Brown Profiling.com and the Sexual Homicide Exchange. We’re going to be talking some more about this case and other work that she does as we’ve talked with Pat on many an occasion on this programme and will continue to do so.
Jim Bohannon: Welcome back, this is the Jim Bohannon show, we’re talking with Pat Brown, she’s the founder of the Pat Brown profiling Agency online at patbrownprofiling.com and for those who haven’t heard your previous appearances on this and many other programs er what is it that you do?
Pat Brown: Well er, my main job is to do criminal profiling which I look at cold cases and I do crime reconstruction and deter…try to determine what might have happened and that’s what the police can use as a lead or to start looking in a certain direction, er, to try and get a focus on a case er and of course I do a lot of television which is commentary and not profiling, but er, I enjoy that as well as a good educational route.
Jim Bohannon: I’m wondering since er apparently a.. a lot of this er this focus is, is based in Britain. We tend to think I guess of the British is almost just quote “us”. Well, we have a common language and we have two free societies but there are differences, significant differences, and I, I understand that the libel laws maybe one area where there are differences.
Pat Brown: Ooooh…extremely. They’re extremely vicious right now in Britain which is why er there’s been a lot…pretty much a shut down of a lot of the media, especially in this case and I’ve had a lot of letters coming in from, from er people living in er UK and they’re like, please do, please speak out because we can’t speak out any longer in, in Britain, it’s just not allowed and they’re very frustrated with the fact they don’t have that freedom – I think there’s something recently afoot where they’re trying to ease up on that because they’re getting, it’s getting to be like a totalitarian society where you can’t say anything, and while it’s true we may be uncomfortable with what somebody says about us and certainly I know because I’ve been on the receiving end of all kinds of interesting commentary, and I, as long as it’s opinion I have to live with it, I think its people’s right to speak with their opinion but when you shut down a society and say you can longer say anything that somebody doesn’t like you’ve got a problem.
Jim Bohannon: What do you put forward in the Profile of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, what er conclusions do you reach?
Pat Brown: Well erm, again it’s a theory so I have to start with that so…
Jim Bohannon: And I understand you’re not at all shy about pointing that out, it is all theory…
Pat Brown:…I have to point that out …and it really is er
Jim Bohannon: I mean you weren’t, you weren’t shy about doing it before you had to point it out isn’t that true?
Pat Brown: Exactly…Well, the point being that it is a theory and it is my theory, er, it doesn’t mean it’s a fact, it doesn’t mean it’s true, it doesn’t mean that’s what happened, it’s a theory of what could have happened. Er and one of the, the most important thing to be pointed out right away is that there is no evidence of an abduction and that’s where the whole thing started to go wrong in people’s minds that maybe we’re not getting a straight story here, erm, right after Madeleine went missing er, the…Kate and Gerry called over to England, well actually Gerry did, and he told a number of relatives that Madeleine had been abducted and somebody had jimmied the shutters of the window, essentially crawling in and taking Madeleine away. Well, what turned out, there was no evidence of anybody coming in that window.
Jim Bohannon: Hmmm…
Pat Brown: And when…and I’ve always wondered you know with the McCanns said the police did a poor job on this and they’re lying about this, but when Kate wrote her book she admitted there was no evidence of anybody coming through that window
Jim Bohannon: Then how do they propose that the break-in occurred?
Pat Brown: Well, now kind of what they, what they’ve set up is everyday of the week they said they locked the doors to that apartment – now wouldn’t you, if you’re in an apartment, in a strange country and you have an apartment that’s on a corner, there’s a road going right behind it and there’s a car park behind it…I don’t think you’d leave the doors unlocked when you’re…well, it’s bad enough that you leave three children alone so most of us wouldn’t do that either, but would you leave your three children alone AND leave the doors unlocked so that anybody could just come in?
Jim Bohannon: Don’t think so
Pat Brown: We wouldn’t think so, well neither did the McCanns so for four days they locked the doors. The fifth day comes along and they say they left the sliding door open in the back so that somebody could go check on their child.. children when they were busy, and that’s never been done before. So suddenly on the, the last day supposedly someone else checks on their children.. child.. and the door’s left open. So you have to wonder is that really what happened or was the place really locked because if it was locked down then Madeleine was not abducted, something happened to her in the apartment in an accident that was then covered up. Er, so you have to have a way for her to get out of that apartment so you have to have an open door.
Jim Bohannon: What have the authorities had to say? Obviously they have long since investigated this adding for item.
Pat Brown: er yeah, Detective Amaral believed…he was the one that believed strongly that Madeleine McCann died in the apartment, they brought in dogs, er one dog identified decomposition behind the sofa, which is where Amaral believes Madeleine died, er the other dog found blood, these are sniffer dogs so this is not something we can see, found blood in the same location and so Amaral believed that Madeleine had an accident while they were out at the, at the restaurant. He believes to this day that they were responsible for what happened to their daughter and that’s why he wrote the book which got … you know…they sued him for.
Jim Bohannon: Uhhmm…but they’re not suing you?… yet.
Pat Brown: Not that I know of.
Jim Bohannon: Not that you know of.
Pat Brown: I have not received a cease and desist letter nor has anybody approached me on that.
Jim Bohannon: Do you think that you have had a chip on your shoulder er that you just had it in for err…the McCanns…
Pat Brown: For the McCanns?
Jim Bohannon: Yeah, I mean that’s the gist of this email which was gratuitously dropped on me
Pat Brown: Right. Erm, I have a thing for justice. I have a thing for the truth, and I, as a profiler I’m very bugged by things when I say, wait a minute, something’s fishy about this, something is …something seems off here, it seems like the truth is not coming out. I have spoken up very strongly in certain crimes where I believe that we’re not getting the full story, and this was one of them, and because of the… the McCanns had a very high profile they did a lot of media er appearances, and every time I saw them things rang wrong again. I’m thinking, why are you saying that? Why are you doing that? So I think if they hadn’t been in the media so much and I hadn’t been so aware of what they were saying I wouldn’t have commented so often, so they made themselves, you know, they put themselves out there and when you do – just like me, I’m going to get people who have things to say about me. (laughs)
Jim Bohannon: Well, erm, unfortunately I guess it sort of goes with the nature of your work that if you don’t like Pat Brown, get in line.
Pat Brown: Yeah, well, pretty much. Yeah.
Jim Bohannon: I mean, I mean, there, there have to be just by the nature of what you have done er, a lot of folks who don’t think kindly of you.
Pat Brown: Well, what will happen in, is… when, when you sp…when you’re outspoken and, and I’ve never been accused of not being outspoken ….
Jim Bohannon: That’s true
Pat Brown: Er, you know, there are some people who go on television for example and talk about a case and they’ll be very careful about it, “well this could happen; or that could happen; maybe she did; maybe she didn’t”…and you think “Well, what do you think?” Well, when I talk about a case I’m pretty blunt about what I think. Here’s what the evidence here is and here’s what I think happened. For example, a simple example. The Susan Powell case out in Utah. This is the woman who disappeared and her husband supposedly took her two…the two little children, two little boys and went out camping in a snow storm…during which time she vanished and has never been seen since. Now, the evidence is pretty clear to me that the most likely suspect is this husband who went on that camping trip for some other reason other than to show his children a blizzard (laughs) when they were two and four years old. So, and she’s never been seen again and he claims she ran o…ran off with some man and there was a wet spot in the so…in the middle of the room with the fans on it which, you know he says she dropped some uh some drink on the floor. I ‘m thinking “Okay so you’re saying she ran off with another man, deserted her children, deserted her husband but she wanted to clean up the house before she went so you wouldn’t have a messed up rug” (laughs). I mean this is the silliness. So this is the kind of thing I would say. Now, when I say that, the people who think that makes sense say “We love you Pat Brown, you know you bring out the points clearly. The people who don’t like that and wanna support Josh Powell send me hate mail (laughs).
Jim Bohannon: More to come as we continue our discussion. Pat Brown, criminal profiler. More to come at Westwood One.
Jim Bohannon: And uh we …sort of we can’t have you on without saying Casey Anthony…
Pat Brown: Well you could but you probably won’t (laughs)
Jim Bohannon: I can’t…I mean it has to be said and there it is and there you are. Well, I guess, were you as surprised as the rest of us were about the verdict?
Pat Brown: I honestly put a four letter word that started with an ‘f’ right on my Facebook page. Now I wasn’t… I have to say I wasn’t surprised as I was just pissed off. I …I…I have a thing about the jury system, I don’t …I think we need to revamp the jury system, I think it’s gotten to the point of ridiculousness where you might as well have a crap shoot…
Jim Bohannon: Do you think we need professional jurors?
Pat Brown: I think so. I..I really think so. I’ve watched too many juries uhm, just come…they can’t grasp the evidence, especially circumstantial evidence. I think we have people on there who have too many other issues. I mean we might have some very good jurors, but then we got people with personality disorders, we got criminals (laughs), we got people who say “I don’t wanna judge other people” and you’re thinking “Why are you on a jury?”
Jim Bohannon: “You’re on a jury, that’s what you do…(inaudible) ”
Pat Brown: Some people lie to get on a jury because they wanna be …you know …get a book written. Some people…you know some people can’t get out of jury because they are stupid as we always say so it’s like “Who are these people?” and they get on there and the…they…it becomes this show by the lawyers and it drives me crazy when with the Casey Anthony case people say “Oh the prosecution didn’t do a good enough job” and I’m like “The prosecution put on an excellent case…you know you always blame them because the jury can’t grasp a huge amount of evidence pointing to one person that …clearly to me she was guilty and it drives me nuts that they cou…did not see that or want to see that…uh, I think the prosecution did fine, but you know if you’re gonna have to go in every time into a court and put on some ridiculous show and just hope you win, this is not justice.
Jim Bohannon: What does “reasonable doubt” really mean?
Pat Brown: That there is really, truly a plausible other explanation. Uhmm. I mean there is, for example we’ve been talking about the McCanns. Let’s say that somebody decided to put the McCanns on trial right now. I would be happy to defend the McCanns because there IS reasonable doubt. I would say I would NEVER convict the McCanns because I don’t have enough proof to say they are guilty of anything. There is a lot of reasonable doubt. Uh, that’s why it’s just a theory and then you have to get more evidence and you have to work your way to that. Casy Anthony, there was no reasonable doubt in that at all I don’t know where they came up with it, we had ..we had a…clearly the death was a homicide. I mean, this garbage about she died in a pool. Oh yeah? She drowned in a pool, I never called 911 and I put duct tape over her face is ridiculous. I mean…the duct tape was to kill the child, we also have the chloroform to sedate the child before we put the duct tape so these…these…this is evidence of homicide. Now who would have done it? Let’s see who’s home? Casey? Yes, the one who doesn’t report for thirty-one days.
Jim Bohannon: Thirty-one days, the average parent, thirty-one minutes they’re frantic…
Pat Brown: Right. And then they try to blame it on George and say “Alright, George is an ex-cop. So George finds his grand-daughter’s drowned, so he decides he’s gonna cart the body around till it decomposes in the trunk and then dump the body next to the house. I mean, I think George is gonna be a little smarter than that (laughs). Sounds more like a girl like Casey Anthony, you know and her kind of brain. So there was no reasonable doubt. And now, what’s interesting is I’m getting hate mail on that.
Jim Bohannon: Really?
Pat Brown: Oh God yes, the same thing. “How dare you? You’re judging ..you’re judging Casey. She was found innocent. See? You always..you always think you’re right. You know? Well in this case, yes I do and I hope a bunch of other people do too…uh think that she’s guilty, not that I’m right but that she’s guilty. And uh..she got away with it is all we can say. She got away with it.
Jim Bohannon: In general, how many people are out there, in your criminal profiling work can you give us a guesstimate of the number of really dangerous people who are roaming the country? Several hundred?
Pat Brown: Oh we’re way over that.
Jim Bohannon: Okay..
Pat Brown: …way over that…even the serial killers, we’ve got…at least like five serial killers just running round every major city so that takes care of a..
Jim Bohannon: REALLY?
Pat Brown: Oh yes. Uh, they don’t get caught that often.
Jim Bohannon: (inaudible)
Pat Brown: And so we don’t realise there are serial killers out there.
Jim Boahnnon: You mean if the police in a major city had the resources, and I’m assuming that they must lack the resources or they’d be all over this, that they would be able to link together enough killings because of common MO or other circumstances that they’d be able to come up with the fact “We’ve got five or six serial killers running around
Pat Brown: Well, they don’t wanna admit it. That’s the problem. They don’t want to admit there are serial killers and sometimes it takes like five or six women all dumped in the same spot and somebody goes “Ah wait a minute…” (laughs) “…like the Long Island serial killer. How many women do you have to find on Long Island before you think “it’s at least one serial killer out here.” Uh, but they don’t like to admit it because it’s a tremendous amount of pressure that comes down and they’re very difficult cases to solve. And, we take Long Island, when that happened, don’t you know you got somebody in Law Enforcement going (growling) “We’re gonna get this guy…we’re gonna get this guy “ When did he say that?
Jim Bohannon: Well…
Pat Brown: Have they gotten that guy?
Jim Bohannon: Well…
Pat Brown: No.
Jim Bohannon: No
Pat Brown: How about the Lennox City serial killer? No. (laughs)
Jim Bohannon: No.
Pat Brown: And we can have a whole list of people that are still running around that we just can’t find… (inaudible).
Jim Bohannon: Are there things that we, the public should look for…I mean and I’m not trying to create a nation of paranoids here but are there …are there clues you know like “He was…Oh he seemed like a nice guy but he was such a loner. I mean well, that covers a lot of people who…
Pat Brown: Right…
Jim Bohannon: …the worst thing they probably do is maybe double park
Pat Brown: Right, well generally speaking they’re losers but then as you point out that’s a good portion of the neighbourhood so (laughs) obviously all losers are not serial killers but all serial killers usually are losers. They have to… they come with a very psychopathic nature along with being a loser and a violent ideation so those things have to come together but you may not be able to identify him until he’s unfortunately choking you to death in a back alley so that’s the problem. We really have to do more to protect ourselves in general and then do a better job catching these guys and when we gotta dead woman in the bushes that’s been raped, naked, tied up in the bushes – this is a serial killer guys, this is not a bad boyfriend, so we need to say right away we gotta serial killer out there.
Jim Bohannon: Are the laws adequate, to deal with this? The ones on the book or are we..
Pat Brown: It’s not…
Jim Bohannon: …inadequate in applying the laws? Where’s the problem here?
Pat Brown: The biggest problem in serial homicides is that the police don’t have enough training in my opinion or enough manpower to go out and find these guys and the fact that simply strangers, we just don’t know who they are.