Click on arrow above or here to listen to mp3.
This transcript is copyrighted. Please DO NOT copy and paste without express permission.
Please note **** means it is inaudible
TRICIA GRIFFITH Okay we’re gonna move on now. Now, erm, I don’t even know where to begin. When I announced that I was going to have criminal profiler Pat Brown on the show to talk about why her book was removed from Amazon. It was a profile of, err, the Madeleine McCann case. I, I don’t even know how to begin to describe it. The people that came out to come and talk to me, some of them were brilliant, wonderful, great people who care about the case deeply and others were just crazy. I mean just, I.., I’m scared. I don’t want these people around me and, you know, I’m talking both sides here. I’m not gonna say one side or the other. They, they are…, they… There are factions involved in looking into the Madeleine McCann case that, that would, err, you know, frighten Batman. I mean its that bizarre. But like I said, I did have a lot of very interesting and, err, incredibly smart input from both sides as well because I wasn’t as up-to-date on the McCann case as I am on others and since there hasn’t been a lot going on I haven’t really been following it so I’ve been kind of doing a crash course thing here. But Pat, first before we go just briefly I wanna just describe in case somebody listening doesn’t remember. Madeleine McCann was a child. She was in an apartment in Portugal on vacation with her parents. Her parents went to dinner fairly close to the apartment but left her and her little brother, I believe, in the apartment
PAT BROWN Her brother and her sister. Yeah, her brother and her sister. Madeleine was three years old going, kind of closing in on four and her little brother and sister were two years old. They were twins.
TRICIA GRIFFITH And when they…
PAT BROWN And the McCanns had a habit like some other people did as well in the group, the friends that were there of leaving the children unattended in their vacation apartment while they went over to the bar/restaurant to spend a few hours in the evening.
TRICIA GRIFFITH And when they…
PAT BROWN And that happened for five days straight.
TRICIA GRIFFITH And when they came back on this particular night Madeleine. Madeleine was gone. Thats the very bare bones of the story.
PAT BROWN Correct. (2.20 / 36.45)
TRICIA GRIFFITH You did a self-published book. It was pulled from Amazon and we’ll get to that in just a second but the main qquestion that people want me to ask you is about the Madeleine Search Fund. You’ve mentioned and posted that you’re going to donate 50% of your proceeds. What is the search fund? Has it been set up officially? How does it work?
PAT BROWN Well I mean I just came up… I just… When this whole thing went down I decided I wanted to put some money towards that, err, because I’m hoping that there’s something that can be done and that nobody has done yet. Erm, I’ve been talking with some people over in Portugal to see what avenues could be taken because what has not been looked at and there, there’s a little bit of a joke with that, not about the fund but about the locations because I said, you know, the fund is to look at Praia da Luz and in Huelva and in Rothley. What that essentially says is that, that basically if something happened to Madeleine that I believe something happened to Madeleine in, in Portugal, that she died in Portugal. I’m not believing that she’s in a sex ring, ha, like Hayley Cummings. I don’t think that anybody kidnapped her and put her into a sex ring. I believe she died in Portugal whether it be in the apartment as I believe evidence most likely, is most likely to support or whether a predator did get a hold of her. Because, you know, one of the things people don’t seem to understand about theories is and profiles is you’re looking at evidence and you’re saying which way does the evidence most likely point to? And working in law enforcement that’s what all detectives do as well. They look at the case and they say OK right now we’re seeing that the evidence points in this direction. They put a bigger effort in that direction than in the other directions. That does not mean the other directions couldn’t exist or be true, you see, because you never want to completely close something down, err, but you’re not going to put a huge amount of effort in a direction you think is very unlikely until you’ve really worked on the direction you think is more likely.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Exactly.(4.32 / 38.57)
PAT BROWN So could Madeleine have been kidnapped, err,… could it have happened? I see it could have happened, erm, and if a predator did get a hold of Madeleine it would be somebody local, in my opinion, who would be like all the other poor children who are kidnapped by sex predators. They’re dead within an hour or two. Most likely, never more than one night. So that that’s what the sex predator does. He uses a child and he kills the child and yet there has really been no focus on finding Madeleine in Praia da Luz in Portugal. The focus of the McCanns has always been that she’s somewhere out there in the world, alive and seven years old and running around and so they’re looking for people who wanted a child and they put it on the sex trade and I just don’t believe in that So yes 50% of my funds… I’m just working on setting this up now. 50% are going to do something to see if we can uncover any more evidence that nobody’s really worked on.
TRICIA GRIFFITH OK but you’re getting it set up and then we’ll know how people can donate and such. Okay so that…
PAT BROWN This will be… This will be.. This will be.. No there’s no donations on this at this point in time.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Oh okay.
PAT BROWN Its just the book funds, they know since I’m making some money on this book and believe me folks I’m not making any fortune on this. But since I’m making some money on this book, I want to put some money into trying to do this. I’ve done pro bono work for 15 years. Erm, all my work with police departments has been pro bono and straight out of my own pocket. So one of the things I said originally was, you know, you know, yes I might make some money on this book but believe me some of the money just goes into pro bono work anyway (LAUGHING).
TRICIA GRIFFITH Right it just…
PAT BROWN Its going into… yeah.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Exactly, right.
PAT BROWN In this case I’ll put some extra money into, you know, something towards Madeleine if I can, you know, then thats what I’m working on doing. (6.16 / 40.40)
TRICIA GRIFFITH I’m a little bit differing viewpoint. After the Elizabeth Smart case, I was very… I live here just outside of Salt Lake City, erm, Angela Ricci, the man who was originally arrested not for the kidnapping but they said he was the main suspect and they violated his parole and he died in prison. I’m, I’ve become friends with her. So I’m, err, you know, I’m very familiar with that case. Ever since the Elizabeth Smart case I feel that unless there is something that really points to a child being killed that if we shut down the avenues…
PAT BROWN There’s hope.
TRICIA GRIFFITH if we shut down the avenues of searching, then we’re going to be…
PAT BROWN Do you know what’s happened with that?
TRICIA GRIFFITH What?
PAT BROWN I hate to say something. I know where you’re coming from, I really do. I don’t mean to interrupt with that. But this has been, the Elizabeth Smart thing and the Jaycee Dugard being found is both the most wonderful and the most disastrous thing that’s ever happened to missing children because of course you always want… If I were a parent gosh I’d want to think my child was alive out there someplace even against all odds I’d wanna believe it. Even like Natalie Holloway. OK even though, you know, we’re aware she died on the beach, we have no proof Natalie is dead. So people are saying Natalie is in a sex **** somewhere off on a Caribbean island being kept in some kind of, you know, brothel she can’t get out of. Natalie is alive. Erm, the problem with this is when you work in law enforcement or do any kind of investigations you have to be practical because you only have so much money, manpower, resources in the world and families ever since Elizabeth Smart showed up again have been saying you have, you have to go after every single avenue possible. You can’t let any, leave any stone unturned as the McCanns would say when in fact the evidence points heavily to 99.9% of the time the child is dead and if thats where the evidence points in that direction you can’t go after. like, every, you know, bizarre little teeny possibility that this is the freakiest thing, you know, and the person gonna end up alive. I mean if that happens its wonderful but I think resource wise you can’t do it. I mean you try to do but you can’t.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Well, yeah. Oh I understand that and I’m not suggesting that, that, you know, that Great Britain or Portugal… (8.36 / 43.02)
PAT BROWN And I think its also sometimes harmful for the families as well because I think at some point, you know, it is kind of sad that, you know, every family is being pulled down this trail now and I mean there’s some families who can realistically say I think my child is probably not alive and therefore… I’m not telling families how to feel but, you know, for some its sometimes its useful to be able to know the truth than to sit for ever and live in this horrible limbo of trying to believe your child is alive, for this you know, this one out of a million chance type of thing. I think its almost kind of cruel that way but erm, I know….
TRICIA GRIFFITH Do you have, do you have children? Do you have children?
PAT BROWN I have three children.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Do you do…? I mean wouldn’t you want to just hold on to that thought that they were alive? I just couldn’t, I couldn’t give up unless there was like obvious evidence like blood and you know …
PAT BROWN I… No, I think I would do what I’ve seen some families do. My brain tells me 99% that my child is dead. My heart tells me just I want the miracle. But those parents I find are also realistic and don’t expect unreasonable things from the police department, from other people, that they shouldn’t spend every penny, you know, doing a ridiculous search of the world because they wish, wish in their heart it to be true. Natalie Holloway, I believe, was murdered by Joran van der Sloot on that beach. It makes no sense to take 5 million dollars that could be used to find children who may be able to be found or spend 5 million dollars catching those predators because those predators are killing other children so if we spend 5 million dollars looking for Natalie alive we may allow 20 predators to go kill 20 more women. Is that right?
TRICIA GRIFFITH Well no, of course not.
PAT BROWN Thats the way I look at it.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Of course not. Let’s get to the Amazon situation and then I want to talk about polygraphs, OK? And Levi, I’m not ignoring you because you are our crime-fighting, you know, blog talk radio host here. Feel free to jump in. I’m not sure how familiar you are with the McCann case but I would love to hear your opinions as well. OK. So just say, “Hey, let me say something you two.” Alright, just jump in.
LEVI PAGE I will. I will.
OK. Thank you.
PAT BROWN Levi’s never been known not to jump in. Come on.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Thats true.
PAT BROWN We can count on it. We can count on it.
TRICIA GRIFFITH That’s true. But if its just between me and you its just gonna be a yap fest. Let’s face it and poor Levi’s just gonna be ah! OK. So you have a self-published book. You’ve had books published before on Amazon. I was reading on your blog and err, when one was published through a publisher Amazon made you go through an incredibly difficult, not difficult but intense…
PAT BROWN Not Amazon. Not Amazon. No.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Who was it? (11.20 / 45.05)
PAT BROWN No, when a book… This is something and I have… You know a lot of people are very, very angry with Amazon and I, actually am not as angry with Amazon as other people are because I recognise Amazon is a business and they have the bottom line of making money and not going under and not being sued. So here’s the way it has worked in the past with publishing. In the past nobody published their own books. Well if you did, you know, you just sort of basically printed it up and you had a couple at your party trying to get rid of your books but you didn’t, you know… A published book had to go through a publisher, had to be accepted, was edited, they examined it and before they put that book out they had to be comfortable with what they were publishing because they can get sued. So when I put out The Profiler. I’ve put out two books I published, two publishers. One of them was Killing for Sport err, and that was published back in 2003 and then, err, this one with Hyperion, The Profiler: My Life Hunting Serial Killers and Psychopaths which came out in 2010. That one was a lot of work. The other Serial Killer book, you know, I wasn’t really… I was talking about just generalities about serial killers and that wasn’t much of an editing issue or a legal issue so they just kind of looked at it and said, “This is fine”. But The Profiler had a lot of my casework in it, erm, a lot of, lots of cases, lots of names, erm, possible suspects, persons of interest, victims. All the names were changed and I changed the locations but, you know, its entirely possible somebody could have recognised the case and actually I’ve gotten a few emails where someone says I know who you are talking about, they saw somebody who, this was, you know. this was a friend of mine, blah blah blah. And mostly its always been a positive thing. I haven’t gotten anything negative in this since the year its been published. But those lawyers at Hyperion went through that book with a fine-tooth comb. They made me send over all my files, every single one of my files related to these cases with the police, the names of the police detectives that were on the cases and exactly where I got all this information. You know a lot of people say, oh you know, she’s never worked with the police. No these were, most, a good proportion of these cases were worked with a police department. Erm, and so they had the information in front of them, that it was, you know, this is where I got it from. So if anybody is going to sue, you know when, well, let me put it this way, when Hyperion put it out they were comfortable with it legally. Therefore Amazon doesn’t feel they have to be responsible. So if anybody comes to Amazon and says, “We want to.. You know that book’s libellous”, they can say, “Go talk to Hyperion”.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Okay, understood.
PAT BROWN Go sue Hyperion and Pat Brown, but, you know, we’re just the seller and we trusted Hyperion to do its job because they’re a big publisher. So they’re on pretty safe ground, but with, with self publishing, you know, there’s no, there’s no, there’s nobody protecting them. Anybody can put anything out. So consequently they have to say can we put this stuff out, you know, because, you know, you know, we could be responsible now because we can’t point back and say somebody else should have done their job because there is nobody else? So, I can sort of see where they’re coming from, yeah.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Understood. Right.
PAT BROWN So they have to think about business and they don’t want to get sued. (14.30 / 48.52)
TRICIA GRIFFITH Let’s talk about, err, the polygraph, okay, and, erm, the McCanns and the people they were eating with that night, they have not taken a polygraph. Erm, tell me about that. Have they been asked to take a polygraph? What’s the situation?
PAT BROWN No its kind of vague. Erm, you know, I know. Its interesting. There’s somebody who might be out there in this, in the world of the McCanns. I did not talk about whether they were asked and they refused, I just said they should take them. I erm….
TRICIA GRIFFITH Well here’s …. Go ahead. I’m sorry, go ahead. (15.00 / 49.26)
PAT BROWN I just want to say something to the people who know this case, erm, what I did in this particular case. I looked at the very basic information for this profile. Okay. You can spend a million years on this case and some of the people who are very, erm, erm, energetic about the case the ones you have, you know, come in contact with, have spent, erm, a good portion of their lives studying every aspect of every single piece of information that ever came out on this case. And I have not had the time to do that. Erm, what I tried to do was look at it a little different. What I tried to do was go back to the basics, just to the crime scene itself. Not every story out there and everybody’s, every theory out there and every possible connection. I, I said let me, I’m not… I’m gonna step away from that. I’m just going to go back to the crime scene and look at the crime scene. So I focused heavily on the crime scene. I did not focus on all the other stuff that came after that. So when people say well Pat Brown didn’t say this, Pat Brown didn’t say that, they’re correct. I did not go there because I wanted to focus on the crime scene pretty much alone. So I don’t have all those answers. (16.08 / 50.33)
TRICIA GRIFFITH What I found out, what I found out about the polygraph. Because thats the one question that everybody always says, “Why don’t they take a polygraph?” In Europe they don’t give polygraphs. They don’t ask. They don’t ask anybody to take one.
PAT BROWN They don’t believe in it as much over there thats true.
TRICIA GRIFFITH They don’t…
PAT BROWN It doesn’t mean they can’t take it.
TRICIA GRIFFITH But, but now here’s the thing.
PAT BROWN Just because somebody doesn’t ask you to do something doesn’t mean that you can’t do it.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Well I know, but, but… I don’t think its fair to hold them to a standard when they’re not, its not… Just because we do it in the US doesn’t mean that they should do it there. (16.40 / 51.05)
PAT BROWN Its not about a standard. Its about trying to clear themselves because they have become… They became whats called arguidos, they became suspects. What we’re talking about is, you know, moving the case forward. One of the things, I think Marc Klaas says it all of the time on Nancy Grace ???? when he’s on there. He says, a parent, and he should know because he was a suspect right up front with his missing daughter, Polly, He says you do everything you can to get the focus off of you to clear your name so they can go look for the person because the family is always looked at first because we all know that thats most likely the people that do in their children and have the proximity to them. So you wanna make sure you clear yourself in every way possible so the police go okay its definitely nothing to do with you. You’re showing no signs of trying to obstruct the investigation, you’re showing no signs of defence initiatives, showing no signs that you’re not telling the truth. So, you know, we, we’re comfortable with you. So, so its not so much that people necessarily have to ask you to do things but at this, at this particular point a lot of people do not believe the McCanns. They do not believe their stories.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Hmm, hmm. (17.50 / 52.11)
PAT BROWN Erm, whether, whether the McCanns are telling the truth or not is not the issue. People don’t believe and most of all apparently the police detectives didn’t believe it and some of the other detectives working on the case. So when they refused, when Kate McCann refused to answer the forty eight questions after they became suspects.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Whoa, whoa, wait a sec. Forty eight questions. Talk to me about that. What is that?
PAT BROWN Okay. What happened was they…. There was a point where they became suspects, where the police said we’re suspicious of these people. So they became whats called arguidos. It gives them some rights and it also makes, you know, took the police, are obviously looking at them. Gerry came in and Gerry answered the questions. But Kate McCann refused to answer any of the qquestions. She said, “I will not answer, I will not answer. I will not answer.” And when she was asked at the very end, “Do you realise this could obstruct the investigation?”, she says “Huh, if you say so.” basically. I can’t remember her exact words, Yeah, she knew she was obstructing the investigation by not answering the questions. (18.50 / 53.16)
TRICIA GRIFFITH Okay. Right.
PAT BROWN Thats an important point. She obstructed the investigation. And then by leaving Portugal the next…, right after that they obstructed the investigation. So that is not a good way, ha ha, to get the police to look for a stranger abduction, when you’re obstructing the investigation. Because, why do you need to do that? Answer the f. stupid questions. I mean if my child disappeared I may be uncomfortable, I may be unhappy but I, if I didn’t do anything you can ask me all the questions you want till the cows come home. I’ve just got innocent answers. You can, I can just keep telling them to you. So I don’t, you know, you wanna do it, you say I will answer any questions. I’ll take a polygraph. I’ll do whatever will help you look some other way. They wanted also to do a reconstruction of the crime, bring everybody in there and go through exactly where everybody was. And thats been refused as well. So this continual obstruction, err, because well there could be a number of reasons, erm, whether either you’re guilty of something or you’re angry that the police have the audacity to look in your direction because they should be looking for that stranger/abductor and thats what Kate McCann says.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Well I do think and this is what I found out. I do think its important to point out both sides here and, Pat, I want to say I don’t, I don’t know what happened. Honestly if I had to decide right now I would say I have no clue. (20.17 / 54.40)
PAT BROWN Nobody knows, nobody knows what happened. I don’t know what happened. I don’t know either.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Kate was questioned.
PAT BROWN And I never said I did.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Oh I know. Kate was questioned for about eleven hours and she answered all of those and this, this, err… She exercised her right to silence on the advice of her lawyer. Her lawyer told her, “Don’t do it. Don’t do it. Don’t do it.”. And that was after being interviewed for eleven hours. Now about the reconstruction, I understand they have done a reconstruction, haven’t they? Erm, it just wasn’t in Portugal if I’m not mistaken? Didn’t they do a documentary? (20.47 / 55.13)
PAT BROWN You can’t do it not in Portugal. They needed to do it in Portugal with the Police at the location, on the street, at the apartment. Thats what the police wanted. The point is thats what the police wanted and do it, do it. And, err, you know, just do it. And then get, you know, if you want….. Get the focus off of you. Do it. Obviously the police have issues with what you’re saying.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Right.
LEVI PAGE Can I ask a question Tricia?
TRICIA GRIFFITH Yes. (21.14 / 55.38)
LEVI PAGE Tricia, erm one thing that I had read, Pat. Isn’t it true that the McCanns said they left the door to… unlocked, that it was unlocked. Anyone could have came in there and they said that it was unlocked and I guess people could sort of see that is they’re trying to set up and make it look like someone had came in there and snatched Madeleine.
PAT BROWN Right, now the locked doors is a really big issue and I have a, an extreme problem with it. Now here’s one of the difficulties when any, whenever you’re looking at people’s behaviour. I find it extremely difficult to believe that anyone would leave their doors unlocked at night when they’re in a location they’re not that familiar with, on a corner, on a street corner, with their children, with, you know, the doors of the house are actually on the street corner, you know, right there for anybody to walk in, take your kids, molest your kids, rape your kids, steal your stuff. I find it hard to believe you would leave that place with the doors open. Now, having said that I also wouldn’t leave my kids unattended while I went drinking, So (GIGGLING) maybe its just the way they behaved, However, what I looked at in this was that the McCanns said, all the people said, all the friends said, “We locked our doors.” The McCanns said they’d locked their doors until it comes down to that night. Suddenly, they leave a door open. Why if they were locking the doors the other nights do they suddenly leave a door open? And they say its so somebody else could check on our kids. Well until that point nobody ever checked on anybody else’s kids. The McCanns didn’t check on anybody else’s kids so why suddenly that night? Oh, this is the night we’re gonna allow somebody else to check on our kids. It doesn’t make a lot of sense. So as if the pattern is then to lock the doors and check on the children themselves. I believe from the evidence thats probably what happened.
LEVI PAGE And Pat, I also heard… I was watching a special on E. They did a thing about shocking crimes and the Madeleine McCann case was featured on there and there was something about some controversy, the way the police questioned Kate McCann and they had Nancy Grace was on there and she was erm… She said that the police should be ashamed. I forgot exactly what the police did. But what did they do that was controversial, that could be considered unethical by the way they questioned Kate? (23.32 / 57.57)
PAT BROWN I don’t… I didn’t particularly see that. I mean, you know, some people aren’t as graceful, you know. I mean, you know, you gotta admit some detectives are a little harsher especially when they think you’re hiding something. I’m not saying being interrogated by the police is particularly pleasant. I don’t think it started out that way. You know, in the beginning the police were looking for a stranger. Thats why Robert Murat became a suspect. And he became an arguido. And some people are ready to say, “Oh they, then they tried to pin it on Robert Murat.” Well, you know, if you’re looking for a stranger/abduction he was not a bad choice. I have to admit it. I would look at him too. He was a little bit odd. He lived right nearby which is where I would suspect anybody who abducted Madeleine would be living fairly nearby. He was lurking around the, the, and, you know, making himself, “Okay I’ll help translate.” He was hanging around the police investigation. He was, he was easy to look at. He was a…, you know. I can’t blame them for looking at him, Erm, and I find it still very interesting that the McCanns are very sympathetic towards Murat and say, you know, he was just, he was so unfairly treated. You know, I don’t know too many families who there’s a guy who could possibly have taken their child even if the police couldn’t prove it who would not still be a little suspicious and, you know, think maybe that guy did do it and the police just couldn’t prove it. You know, I find it real interesting they’re able to dismiss him so easily as a suspect because he would certainly be one of the better suspects.
TRICA GRIFFITH Well unless, unless the police, you know, have they cleared him already? Or is he still considered a suspect? (25.05 / 59.30)
PAT BROWN Well, you know, I guess the way, you know, its kinda interesting the way… I don’t think they’ve cleared him.
TRICA GRIFFITH Right, but you know, you know what I mean. They don’t ever officially clear anyone, you know.
PAT BROWN Yeah. He was a suspect. He became an unsuspect. I don’t know that it means he couldn’t become a suspect again. (25.19 / 59.45)
TRICA GRIFFITH Right, well I ….
PAT BROWN I think the problem is they’re looking at the McCanns and they, thats basically where they’re at.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Right.
PAT BROWN The case has been shelved and they are looking at the McCanns still.
TRICIA GRIFFITH I’m gonna play devil’s advocate. May I please here for a moment, Pat?
PAT BROWN Sure.
TRICIA GRIFFITH You know, if, if the McCanns were really involved, err, why wouldn’t they turn to the suspect and say, “Yes, yes he did it.” like the Ramseys were blaming everybody? You know, to me it seems like they’re just being honest and saying, you know, yeah this guy didn’t do it either. But I…, here’s one thing I wanna talk to you about that I found compelling, erm… Again if you were to ask me, if I were to look at this before Elizabeth Smart I would have probably said, “Yeah, the parents did it.” After Elizabeth I’m wide open here. Okay, now there are… From what I understand there are some witnesses who have come forward to say they had seen a man hanging around the McCann apartment, one person even claimed that he leaned over the wall. Okay? Erm, now don’t you think that it is very likely that if there was a guy hanging around, there’s reports of this man carrying a child down the street, why couldn’t that be as logical as anything else rather than the McCanns just all of a sudden up and killing their child? To me…
PAT BROWN No, I don’t think they up… No, first of all, wait a minute I don’t think they up and killed their child.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Okay.
PAT BROWN I don’t think so even, even if I say that the evidence might lead me to believe Madeleine died in that apartment I don’t think that they up and killed their child.
TRICIA GRIFFITH It was an accident? (26.54 / 1.01.18)
PAT BROWN I think they loved… I think they loved Madeleine. I think they would, you know… I don’t think anything… I believe the evidence points to most likely an accident in the apartment that was covered up. Err, thats what I believe the evidence most likely points to and again this is a theory so I’m not saying this is what happened. Erm, why couldn’t it be something else? Well, here’s a rule for anything. Yes, it can always be something else. I mean, we could say that again for every case. Well maybe the husband didn’t do it, maybe it was her ex boyfriend, maybe it was the mail man, maybe it was… But there’s always things that are more logical than other things no matter what. And do we sometimes have an anomaly? Yes, we do. Erm, I always try to remember this girl’s name. I don’t know why I always forget. Okay, Levi, help me out here. A little girl who was killed by the church woman? ….
LEVI PAGE Oh, that was a case in Florida.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Sandra Cantu. Yeah.
PAT BROWN Sandra Cantu. Sandra Cantu. That is an anomaly. I mean everybody was shocked. But, say what, she was sexually assaulted by the church woman? I mean you would think this was a male predator, a sex offender and 99.99% of the time thats what it would have been. She was unusual. Of course, that means that every, now, now, now because its happened you keep your, well you never know it could be a woman. You know, you’ve had that experience being a little bit burned because, you know, you were so surprised by that. But that still doesn’t mean the majority of the time it isn’t a male predator. So when we look at a case, yes anything is possible. We have to be careful to look at… Like the Casey Anthony case. Anything’s possible there too but when you take the totality of the evidence its not one thing that makes you say, “Oh, that just points towards maybe the McCanns are involved?” Its not one thing. Its the totality of the evidence. (28.37 / 1.03.01)
TRICIA GRIFFITH Hmm, hmm.
PAT BROWN That says, mmm, that this theory may be more possible than that theory. So I think yes, so there maybe something… Okay, yes, somebody says some creepy dude was looking around, looked over their wall. So first of all who are these somebodies? You know, was this guy really, you know, doing anything? Maybe he was glancing, maybe there was some guy glanced over the wall because he lost his, he lost his, err…, I don’t know, he lost his ring over the wall or maybe he was a…, maybe the guy was thinking about burgling the place? You know, he looked over the wall? Who knows who this guy was? Maybe somebody made that crap up? You know, thats, you know, maybe after people get excited they start seeing everything. Oh yeah, there was this guy and there was this guy, it gets crazy. So could there have been somebody? Yes, there could have been. Erm, but there’s all this other evidence and thats, thats the thing. When I start weaving it together, thats why I wrote the book the way I did to say, okay, let’s take a look at the crime scene. What went on? Let’s see what the evidence tends to point or what seems most logical like the doors?
TRICIA GRIFFITH I wanna jump in.
PAT BROWN Could it be possible that they can’t let the doors on one night? Yes its possible, its not probable.
TRICIA GRIFFITH I wanna jump in here. I wanna jump in here. From what I understand about the doors the McCanns claim to have left the patio door unlocked in all of their statements. Erm, they that, you know, they said yeah they left it unlocked. They just did that night and, erm, you know, they…
PAT BROWN Yeah, thats true.
TRICIA GRIFFITH And so…
PAT BROWN That night. That night. I’m not talking about…
TRICIA GRIFFITH Okay.
PAT BROWN I’m not saying they changed the statement.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Right.
PAT BROWN I’m saying why would they, this one night decide to do this? And also in their original statement they didn’t go through the door. The original statements, Gerry goes around to the front and unlocks the door so does Kate. So if the backdoor is open why don’t they just go through the darn thing? Why did they go opening, unlocking the other door? So their statement did change from the first, from the first interview to the next one then they say, “Oh no, I went in the back.” That did change but the issue about the doors being locked was supposedly, “Yes, we locked them, we locked them, we locked them. Oh, that night we didn’t lock the back door.”
TRICIA GRIFFITH I think, I think too…
PAT BROWN Thats whats weird. Why that one night did they suddenly not lock back door?
TRICIA GRIFFITH Well, you know what? Maybe if they would’ve locked it, maybe she wouldn’t be missing? I mean, you know, if that…
PAT BROWN This is possible. This is possible.
LEVI PAGE Well maybe they would’ve, maybe if they….
PAT BROWN Its possible the doors, or the doors were locked and thats the problem. Remember about the… Okay, let’s go to the open window. The open window is a really big issue in this case. Originally the statement was that, you know, they, their statement after they, that Madeleine was gone and they started making calls back, well Gerry started making calls back to England. They said, Madeleine’s been abducted. The, erm, the shutters were jemmied on the window and basically the guy came in the window and stole Madeleine. Alright. Then, eventually, the police did their investigations and said there was no sign that the, the, the windows, you know, that the, the shutters had been jemmied. No sign anybody had been through the windows, the only fingerprint there was Kate’s. Now, I heard this before and, and one of the reasons I never wrote the profile before is because I was waiting to hear from Kate because I never knew what she was saying about anything.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Hmm hmm.
PAT BROWN I thought that when she wrote her book and she wrote a book called ‘Madeleine’, erm, fairly recently it came out. And I thought for sure we were going to see something in there like the police botched the investigation, they did a terrible job on those windows and they feel that guy came through the window but the police say, you know, the police say they messed it up when they did the investigation and said nobody came through the window but thats not true. This is not what Kate wrote. Kate wrote nothing that the police did was incorrect about those windows. She basically said nobody did come through the windows. She admits that. Now what she says is it seems that perhaps the man came through an open door or had a, had a copy of the key. For some reason he opened the window of the bedroom maybe with the idea that he’d go out the window with Madeleine which makes no sense to the… because the front door is on the same exact side of the apartment so, you know, why go through a window when you can go through a door? So suddenly the guy didn’t come in through the window. So now we have a problem if the guy didn’t come through the window how did he get in the house? Well, there’s a very useful reason for a open back door.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Devil’s advocate. Devil’s advocate here. May I? Devil’s advocate. Can I just jump in?
PAT BROWN Sure. (32.58 / 1.07.23)
TRICIA GRIFFITH Okay, supposing somebody came in through the patio door. Alright. Maybe they looked out, maybe they opened the window and looked outside to see what was going on?
PAT BROWN No.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Maybe they had an accomplice? I mean there’s a million, there’s a million things that could have happened…
PAT BROWN No, no. What you’re doing is you’re pointing out, yes, there’s always, this is what I’m saying, there’s always a scenario and thats what happened in the Casey Anthony trial.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Hmm, hmm.
PAT BROWN Thats why the jury let her go.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Right.
PAT BROWN Because lawyers came up with, “You never know. Maybe this could’ve happened or maybe it was Martians? But its not. Well here we’d have a guy comes in the back door. Now lets put it, lets look at it this way. Alright. You only have so much time in that house. Alright? You wanna get in there and you wanna get the hell out of there. You go in, you grab the kid, you leave. You do that within a minute. You don’t waste your time doing crap that you don’t need to do. Those windows, you would have to open the windows and then you would have to open the shutters which make a lot of noise supposedly. But you have to do two of those motions. What’s the point when you could just open the door and peep out or you could just run back out the door you came in? People don’t do a whole bunch of other things that make no damm sense. Okay, so thats, you know, thats one of the things they have to get away from. You have to go to what makes sense and err, again with the totality of all the other information not just, you know, one thing. Again you can always point out one issue and say, “See, this could be this.” Well yes it could but then we have twenty other pieces of information that say it all matches together and makes the total look like… (34.28 / 1.08.51)
LEVI PAGE Why were, why were the McCanns never charged with neglect? I mean I think that it seems like a pretty open and shut case if they can’t get ‘em for anything else. Neglect, I mean they basically have admitted that they left their child alone, unattended and they said that the doors were unlocked.
PAT BROWN You know, I think it was because at that point in the beginning it seemed like punishment enough to have your child be missing. You know I think people would have had a real hard time charging people for a crime when their kid is dead or missing.
LEVI PAGE Well I think even… Even if they did not do anything at all to their daughter I have no sympathy for them if they left a child, other children alone in a hotel room with the door locked. Thats stupid.
PAT BROWN It is.
LEVI PAGE And they’re educated people and they know better. I have zero sympathy for them actually. I don’t know what happened. I’m like Tricia but that alone I think they should have been charged for child neglect. I can understand maybe not charging them right up front because you, you don’t want them to, to shut up and lawyer up very quickly but later on down the road I don’t understand why they weren’t charged with child neglect.
PAT BROWN Well they aren’t there. Thats one reason. They fled Portugal. Ha, ha, ha (LAUGHING) so they’re not living there.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Lets talk about some of the evidence. To me the biggest, one of the biggest pieces of solid evidence is the witness who saw the man carrying a child.
PAT BROWN (LAUGHING) Thats one of the worst pieces of evidence.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Well now why are you laughing? That to me, I mean…
PAT BROWN I think… I’ll tell you, yeah, Jane Tanner. That to me is one of the worst pieces of evidence and that is one of the biggest red flags in this whole… To me. Okay, biggest red flag so its okay. Erm, why? Alright, first of all Jane Tanner, for people who don’t know what happened here. Gerry supposedly… Gerry is the father of the children. He supposedly went to make his check on the children at 9.15. Okay? So he leaves the restaurant and he goes off to check on the children. Soon after that Jane Tanner goes to make her check on the children. So she goes off and she sees Gerry standing in the road talking with a fellow named Jeremy. That wasn’t one of their friends but Jeremy and Gerry played tennis together. She sees him in the road. She says, and here’s one red flag. Err, he’d obviously… He’d finished, you know, seeing the ch… He’d already done his check. Well she couldn’t possibly have known whether he’d done his check or not because he could have run into Jeremy and started up a conversation and not even gone in yet. I don’t know why Jane said he’d already done his check. She couldn’t possibly have a clue. But as she is coming, approaching them she sees a man come out from behind the building at the corner coming from where would be the window that we’re talking about of Madeleine’s room. A man walking by carrying a child in his arms, a little girl with his arms outstretched and this kid just kind of lying in his arms, kind of a weird way to carry a kid. Most people would pick up a kid and throw it against their body and run off with it. You know, you don’t walk down the street with your arms outstretched with a kid lying on ‘em. But, okay, thats her description of him. Now it turned out, which was kind of odd I think, because Jeremy, said he never saw Jane Tanner. So I don’t, they know, the police can’t figure out why and Gerry said he didn’t either, why Jane saw them and they didn’t see her? And they didn’t see this man either. So we, we, we have, to say Jane Tanners the only one that saw this man. Now think about this. Man comes out of the window, okay? But ****, how did he get out of there?
TRICIA GRIFFITH She didn’t say he came… She didn’t say she saw him come out the window.
PAT BROWN No, no, no.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Yeah.
PAT BROWN He just comes from behind the building. The theory being he came out the window or the door. But however he got out of the building with Madeleine. Now here’s a guy… Now when you come out of that building its kind of… There’s a little wall there. Kind of the door is kind of recessed and you can peek out, look around and see if anybody’s around. Then you can peek around the corner and see if anybody’s in the street You can decide to go to the left or to the right. If you go to the left you go down by that wall on the back side of the building, right?
TRICIA GRIFFITH Hmm, hmm. (38.30 / 1.13.00)
PAT BROWN Or you can go to the right where two men are standing right in the street talking. Now I don’t know but if I just came **** and took somebody’s kid out of a building I don’t think I would be crossing that street with two men standing there talking. I think I would be going the other way. So thats kind of odd again. And here’s what really… Here’s the bit… There’s two reasons thats really red flags for me. Okay, so Jane says she saw this, am I right? Life(Night?) goes on. Kate comes back, does her ten o’clock checking. Madeleine is gone. Madeleine is gone. Kate’s going crazy. Jane runs into Kate right after that as Kate’s racing around saying, “Where’s Madeleine, where’s Madeleine?” Jane runs into her, does not tell her she saw a man going out of the apartment with a little girl. She does not tell her.
TRICIA GRIFFITH But she did tell the police and she told everyone else. Maybe she just didn’t want to upset her right then?
PAT BROWN No, no, no. Later, later, later on she did that. But I, you know, to me it boggles the mind. Would you..? Kate is looking for her child and you have a clue right away that that man might have taken that child and gone down that road, you’re not gonna immediately tell Kate, ”You know, I saw some guy coming by your apartment with a child. It might have been Madeleine. He went thataway. She never tells her right then and there so they can go try to find, go try to find Madeleine? She waits hours? (39.45 / 1.14.08)
TRICIA GRIFFITH Well I thought she told the police right away. I mean like immediately. I thought she told everybody else immediately, just not Kate.
PAT BROWN The police weren’t there immediately.
TRICIA GRIFFITH But didn’t she tell everybody else?
PAT BROWN There’s a downtime and there’s almost an hour’s downtime between when she ran into Kate and when the police showed up. And we don’t even know she told the police immediately. I don’t know **** sort of immediately.
TRICIA GRIFFITH But didn’t she till everybody else, just not Kate because she didn’t want to freak her out?
PAT BROWN No, she didn’t tell everybody else. No, I don’t know where you’re getting that from. She did not tell everybody else. She, she supposedly mentioned it to one other person. You’re wrong. You have to understand that this is the story thats coming out later.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Hmm, hmm.
PAT BROWN Okay? This is the story that could well, could well… I’m not saying this is true. This is the story thats coming out later. We don’t know that the friends did not have discussion about what might be said, what might be…, if this were a cover up. What, what, what might be..? What, what might we do? You know, a lot of things could be said later but we don’t that they really actually happened as it is said.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Right.
PAT BROWN We’re just assuming that they’re telling the truth. We don’t know that. But…
TRICIA GRIFFITH So do you..?
PAT BROWN …what strikes me as completely bizarre is that you wouldn’t tell your friend that you saw somebody running off with their kid. And that Kate, later on says, “Oh I don’t have any anger towards her at all. I feel sorry for the burden she had to carry.” I’m sorry, I’d be really pissed off if somebody saw somebody running out of my house with my kid or somebody who could be my kid and they didn’t bother to tell me and let my kid go off with some sex pervert for an hour. I’d be livid. I think thats very, very bizarre. (41.10 / 1.15.35)
TRICIA GRIFFITH You know and I…
PAT BROWN And here is another thing thats really important about that sighting, thats really important about the sighting. There’s another sighting at ten o’clock near the beach, another fellow carrying a little girl in a more normal position, towards the beach. Immediately the McCanns said it was, couldn’t have been that person. It only could be Jane Tanner’s man that she saw at 9.15. Now, if you look at the comings and goings of the people there’s no reason if Madeleine were kidnapped at lets say 9.45 why that couldn’t be the man at ten o’clock. Why did they constantly say it couldn’t be that other man at ten o’clock? It makes no sense because there could still be a perfectly good kidnapping theory and kidnapped at 9.45 and the guy took her down towards the beach. Why not? Well the only reason I can think of is because at 9.15 when Jane Tanner had her sighting Gerry, err Gerry McMann, I’m sorry, Gerry McCann has an alibi.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Hmm, hmm.
PAT BROWN Thats the only reason I can think that they’re so adamant it couldn’t be him. Now later on they’re willing to say… Okay, later on, they say okay maybe it could have been the man at the beach but only if its the same man that Jane saw. In other words at 9.15 she saw him and then he ducked into some place for 45 minutes and then he was seen again at the beach. Later on they were grudgingly willing to say maybe thats it but only if its the same man. I cannot think of a very good reason why it couldn’t be the kidnapper kidnapping Madeleine at 9.45 and ending up there at ten except for somebody’s alibi. I can’t come up with a good reason. I wish somebody would come up with one. I can’t.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Let me… I have a question… I have a question about your timeline here briefly, okay? This has got me perplexed. You’re timeline has Gerry McCann being spotted by an Irish family about a half a mile from the McCann’s apartment at ten. Is that correct?
PAT BROWN No.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Thats not correct. Okay.
PAT BROWN No. Who wrote that one in? No. No, a man was spotted near the beach at ten o’clock.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Hmm, hmm.
PAT BROWN With a child.
TRICIA GRIFFITH And that… But you’re not saying… Okay, I see. I’m sorry. I thought you said it was Gerry. Okay. Okay.
PAT BROWN I’m not saying it was Gerry McCann. What I’m saying is that whoever… One problem with our timeline and people who are very, very pro the McCanns will adamantly say there’s a thousand witnesses that put everybody in these specific places at these specific times and Gerry McCann was definitely in the restaurant at ten o’clock when Kate said this and everybody’s got the specifics, exact times on things and even the, even the friends have exact times which makes me kind of laugh. They’ll say like for example, I went to check on the child at 9.12, and then, you know, we checked on the child again at 9.27. I’m thinking I’m drinking wine (LAUGHTER). You know, I don’t know that I’d know the time so well. You know usually you do something like, “Oh, **** we’d better go check on the kids.”
TRICIA GRIFFITH Right, right.
PAT BROWN You don’t usually, you know, know exactly what the minute is. Its almost like, its like everybody sat down and said what time shall we… We gotta make sure our timings are right here. Its, its just too exact. I mean, I just find that kind of peculiar. I think they should be saying well we were kind of drinking, you know, so, you know, we went back and forth and we checked and I think I checked around this time and I probably, well I don’t know, maybe I went at nine, maybe I went at 9.15. I can’t quite remember. You know, I don’t know. The timelines are really messed up and I think thats something I would like to know more… I would like some more clarity on it myself. But clearly the detective on the case, Detective Amaral, didn’t.., had problems with the timelines himself. So I think a lot of people who are saying there’s absolutely no way the timelines lock them in. I don’t believe that is true.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Lets talk about what you think happened, erm, briefly. What happened? Where did Gerry take his daughter? What happened. You talk about them visiting the corpse. Go through that timeline of exactly how you…
PAT BROWN Now wait a minute. I’m not saying thats what happened. We’ve gotta be careful here. I never said thats what happened. (LAUGHTER)
TRICIA GRIFFITH I know in your hypothesis. In your theory, in your hypothesis tell me what you think…
PAT BROWN This is one hypothesis.
TRICIA GRIFFITH One hypothesis. Tell me how you think this went down. (45.19 / 1.19.45)
PAT BROWN Right. Well I do believe that, you know, err, that what the evidence, that what the evidence most supports is one, or at least a good hypothesis that as it were is that Madeleine died in the apartment because there is no evidence, and this is absolutely true, there is no evidence of an abduction. There just isn’t any. There is no evidence of an abduction. The only evidence we have, you could say, is that Madeleine is missing. But thats not evidence of an abduction. Err, that just means she’s missing. We just don’t know what happened to her.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Okay.
PAT BROWN But there’s no evidence of an abduction. Now there was the issue of the dogs hitting on, erm, decomposition and blood in the apartment.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Hmm, hmm.
PAT BROWN Yeah. One dog hit on behind the sofa for decomposition and the other dog hit on blood behind the sofa. Now the people who are very, very pro-McCann and this is what Kate McCann will say and what Gerry McCann will say, say its all junk science. The dogs are complete junk science and its just ludicrous and their supporters will say thats completely correct, its ludicrous so therefore there’s no proof anybody died in the apartment. There’s no proof there was any blood in the apartment. Erm, its all silliness. And there’s a really interesting point about this which I did not make in the book. The dogs also hit on the McCann’s rental vehicle which was rented some months, around a month afterwards. I’m gonna miss the exact date here. Erm, somebody will say its exactly this many days and my mind doesn’t work that well at the moment (LAUGHTER) to remember that detail. But it was about a month later. And the dogs hit on the car. Now, think about this. If you were trying to get the dogs to fake this stuff…
TRICIA GRIFFITH Hmm, hmm. (47.08 / 1.21.31)
PAT BROWN …making the dogs find decomp in the apartment, that makes sense because you’re trying to railroad them, right? Lets have Madeleine die in the apartment so let railroad ‘em by having them find some cadaver stuff in there. That works. Why in God’s earth would you have the dogs hit on the car that they rented a month after the child died? Wouldn’t that just make you look stupid more than it would help you out? (LAUGHTER) Because its pretty bizarre.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Right.
PAT BROWN That would mean they had to have moved the body a month later. Why have such..? You know, if you were gonna fake it you wouldn’t even bother with that. You’d just say the kid died in the apartment. They must have buried the body some place.
TRICIA GRIFFITH So are you suggesting that they went, and buried her somewhere and then dug her back up and brought her..? I mean I am confused.
PAT BROWN What happened, well the one, one theory, one theory is that the, the… If the child died in the apartment there was an attempt to cover up and they moved her some place.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Hmm, hmm.
PAT BROWN It is not the first time that somebody has moved a body some place and then when a search is going to ensue in that area, freak out because they believe the body will be discovered. And will take that opportunity to move the body to yet another location so the search team doesn’t find it. There was a search team at one of the places I believe that she could have been placed, err, if this were true. Its upon the… Its called the Rocha Negra. Its the cliff that overhangs. Its where Kate and Gerry used to go running up in the cliffs. Erm, its a nice isolated location. Erm, its near the beach and its kind of… They went running there so people tend to dump bodies where they’re familiar so it could have been, if they did do something, it could have been a choice. But I believe, why they would move a body, if they did that, but it turned out that about the time they went to Huelva, Spain the police were about to search that particular location. So its rather interesting. That, that could explain it if thats what happened. Erm, so I don’t know, err, if that is what happened but one wonders why the dogs did hit on the apartment and the car unless you want to say thats complete junk science. I tend to think it is not junk science, erm, because now again when we look at all the evidence you have to look at does it make sense?
TRICIA GRIFFITH Hmm, hmm. Oh, absolutely.
PAT BROWN A lot of it does make sense. As, as one, as one theory. Now again you can’t prove anything until you get to court and sometimes you can’t even prove it then (LAUGHTER) as we all know.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Exactly.
PAT BROWN Thats why a person is not, you know, they’re not, they’re not convicted of anything unless you can prove it, erm, so you know it takes a lot, its gonna take a lot more investigation in this case. Unfortunately the case has been shelved. (49.50 / 1.24.16)
TRICIA GRIFFITH So, but don’t you have..?
PAT BROWN And I know there are a lot of people out there screaming, “Oh no, Kate wants the case opened up and Scotland Yards gonna be involved and supposedly I’ve heard this number thrown around… Have you heard this, Levi or Trish, Tricia that three and a half million pounds to be spent on this investigation? I’m like, you’re gonna spend I think its like almost five million US dollars…
TRICIA GRIFFITH Right
PAT BROWN Five million US dollars looking for one child? Where? Why? How? I mean what are you even spending the money on? I can’t even figure it out. (50.23)
TRICIA GRIFFITH I don’t know.
PAT BROWN Just because someone is saying, you know, we want this case looked at by Scotland Yard doesn’t mean Scotland Yard is going to look at it from the very beginning.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Right.
PAT BROWN I don’t know what’s going on in that. I think if they really wanted the case looked at properly they could have returned to Portugal and say “Unshelve the case. I’m gonna ask. I was all bent out of shape when you, you know, because I was so angry at the time. I wanna come back to Portugal. I wanna do the re-enactment. I wanna do… I wanna answer those questions and I wanna get this show on the road. I want you to find my kid”. And I also think it would behove them in doing so to also be willing to admit it could be a local sex predator because it seems to me like they spend no time even considering the fact that she could be have been taken by a local sex predator and that bothers me tremendously.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Right.
PAT BROWN Because thats the most likely scenario if they had nothing to do with it. The most likely scenario is the local sex predator.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Absolutely, absolutely. Now, erm, in your, erm, err, hypothesis correct me if I’m wrong. Do you include them bringing Madeleine back to England or, in a backpack or what was that?
PAT BROWN No. I err, I prop… I… Once I kinda made a, a blog. I said what of this ludicrous theory? I was trying to point out that we want to keep all our options open, that one possibility is that she could have been returned to England one way or the other. Erm, and I pointed out that people have been able to smuggle lots of things into England. And also if you’re flying on private jets, or you’re coming into England with an entourage, you know sometimes you can just walk through customs and nobody pays any attention to anything. Err, and then, of course, you don’t have to always take a plane. You can go via other methodologies or you can pass a child off to somebody and have that child take the child back. One reason I bring that up as a possibility if they were involved is because people are much more comfortable sometimes when they know where the child is and its on their own property or its on a relative’s property because you can’t go on the property without a search warrant, right?
TRICIA GRIFFITH Right.
PAT BROWN So sometimes people bury people they’ve killed or had accidental deaths or whatever the reason is. The ones they don’t want to be investigated. They bury the child or the other person on their own property because, yeah, without a search warrant nobody’s walking on your property to find that person. Then you can say, “Look everywhere. Look everywhere in the world.” Because you don’t have to worry about her ever being found, least not the body being found.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Okay. I, I don’t know. That just sounds really creepy and I… You’ve been to London through Heathrow and everything. If they did take the airport or an airline it would be hard because they have all of those, you know, animal dogs or food dogs there sniffing to see if there’s food and…
PAT BROWN Do you know how much meat gets through? Thats one of the things I pointed out.
TRICIA GRIFFITH I know its a big problem, a big problem
PAT BROWN There was a big problem with huge quantities of meat going through the airport. They were smuggling meat straight through Heathrow.
TRICIA GRIFFITH But that would just seem so creepy to me. Okay, lets talk about…
PAT BROWN There’s a lot of creepiness. I mean when you take a look. Its important to look at desperate situations.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Hmm, hmm.
PAT BROWN When people are desperate… When you look at people who cut people’s bodies up. How could you do that? People are desperate. You’re living in an apartment, you just killed your girlfriend, you’re living on the third floor, you’ve got no car, what are you gonna do? So you cut her up and put her in suitcases? I mean thats pretty disgusting and creepy but people do that.
TRICIA GRIFFITH That is. But it does happen.
PAT BROWN It happens but ****.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Lets talk about how in your hypothesis you think she died by… Was it an accident or perhaps a drug overdose? What do you think happened in this particular hypothesis?
PAT BROWN Well, there, there is a good reason to believe it could be a, have some kind of drugs and the reason being is because Kate McCann herself and Gerry McCann say they believe their children, all three of them, may have been drugged by whoever took Madeleine.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Hmm, hmm.
PAT BROWN Now, I don’t, I’m looking at, going back in time and looking at all kinds of children who have been kidnapped. I don’t know of any kidnapper who goes in there and tries to get some kind of medication into the children…
TRICIA GRIFFITH Right.
PAT BROWN … before they take them. I mean, try to use chloroform or something like that, you know, because you can stick it over their face and run away with the child. But to do something, you know, to feed them some kind of drugs or make them drink it, you wake them up to make them drink drugs? You know, its (LAUGHTER), its just, its just silly. I mean, you don’t do that and so you have to wonder why does she insist that her kids all may have been drugged?
TRICIA GRIFFITH I’ve never heard that. So she really does say that? I mean she really believes it? Kate really believes that, really?
PAT BROWN Well one thing that happened was when they came back Kate was flipping out because Madeleine was gone. She was crying and screaming, of course, that she… And that was normal. I think she really was. I think she was very upset. Of course her child was… Something had happened to her child and those twins slept like logs and did not wake up. Now we all know some children just sleep like logs.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Yeah.
PAT BROWN So thats not an issue. But she became concerned enough about her children at some point to check their breathing because she said they were sleeping too heavily and she thought, she said they might have been sedated by the kidnapper. Well, I’m sorry, but if I think my kids have been sedated by a kidnapper I’m shaking them half awake…
TRICIA GRIFFITH Right
PAT BROWN … to make sure they’re okay. Or, if I was really worried, taking them to hospital to have them checked out. She did neither of those things. (55.45 / 1.30.12)
LEVI PAGE Weren’t they tested, all the children? I thought I read where they were tested to see if they had digested any drugs and it came back negative.
PAT BROWN Yes they were. Absolutely. Way, way later when it was already moot, you know what I mean?
LEVI PAGE Okay.
PAT BROWN Yeah, way later. But you wonder why she would even think that, why she would even go there? But the most logical theory is, yes, the children, because err, Madeleine, the night before this all happened had been crying and she said her brother was crying for like over an hour and “Mommy, why didn’t you come?” And Kate states this as well so its not like just a rumour, somebody said that thats what was said. So she cried and her mother didn’t come for a long, long time and yet they go out the next night and do the same thing which kind of boggles my mind. But one wonders did they do something to take care of the crying problem, to calm the children down?
TRICIA GRIFFITH Hmm, hmm.
PAT BROWN Now if Madeleine ingested, whether she was over…, could’ve overdosed on something, whether there was just too much medication or whether she was just groggy from the medication or that she got into some more medication, who knows? But that, the theory that the police had was in whatever condition she was in she climbed up on the sofa, looked out the window and fell…
TRICIA GRIFFITH Hmm, hmm.
PAT BROWN … behind the sofa. And it is a hard, hard tile stone kind of floor and normally kids just bounce but you know there are other times kids fall and die.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Yeah, thats pretty awful.
PAT BROWN Or she could’ve asphyxiated in a position of asphyxiation she was groggy and fell into some weird position. She could’ve aspirated vomit. There’s a lot of possibilities but the dogs say she, that that child died behind the sofa. Thats what the dogs say. You know they found decomposition and some blood.
LEVI PAGE I thought I recall in the beginning of this case… Wasn’t there something found in the car that Kate and Gerry McCann had rented?
TRICIA GRIFFITH Yes.
LEVI PAGE What was it?
PAT BROWN Yeah, yes. They found decomp in the car. Decomp and some fluid and they said that it was, you know, most likely… It gets a little confusing because there are people arguing over the report so
LEVI PAGE Don’t tell me it was hamburger meat? (LAUGHTER)
PAT BROWN Yeah there was probably found something that was, err, DNA that would match Madeleine in the trunk and then the McCanns said something to the effect that, “Oh, we just err, we had the diapers of the children in the trunk, used diapers of the children in the trunk and…”
TRICIA GRIFFITH But didn’t the DNA come back that it wasn’t, they couldn’t match it?
PAT BROWN I believe it came out… Now, I’ll have to think about this because this is where some of the confusion comes in. This one I kept away from because it was such a confusion and I don’t know who to believe on this one, you know, at the moment. I’ll have to do a little bit of stronger study and see the paperwork myself.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Now… I think its on line if I’m not mistaken. I believe the report is online. If… but I could be wrong.
PAT BROWN I’d say there’s a number of reports and the question is, you know, who did the testing and how reliable is it and that kind of stuff. People also don’t understand that, you know, sometimes, you know, sometimes DNA testing is a little questionable. (LAUGHTER)
TRICIA GRIFFITH Well, yeah, true. Now let me get back to the dogs. You said something and I want to make sure that I’m clear on this. You said that they hit on decomp and blood. They didn’t find anything. What do you mean they hit on decomp and blood? Do you mean just that they..?
PAT BROWN They found… The dog, the dog was able to recognise a location where there is a body that has decomposed…
TRICIA GRIFFITH Hmm, hmm
PAT BROWN … to some extent. And the other dog is able to hit on an area that has had blood at that location.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Okay, okay and was it, I mean was it an absolute strong…? And you’re right. That alone in itself, although it is compelling, certainly isn’t, you know, the end all because they can make mistakes and whatever, but.
PAT BROWN No, I don’t think in a court. You know its one of those… Its one of those sciences, well, you know, some people say it isn’t a science, that its, you know, its junk science kinda like, you know, the smell testing thing they were doing, and the chloroform thing they’re doing in the Casey Anthony case and remember the guy who came in from the body farm…
TRICIA GRIFFITH Right.
PAT BROWN And oh you know and I smell that. I mean its newer and, and in this particular case the dog I spoke to I suppose they haven’t been wrong in about two hundred times or something. And again, again I mean its not one thing in isolation. I keep having to say that over and over again because if I took anything in isolation I can say well thats probably junk or thats probably junk.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Right.
PAT BROWN But if everything together that there’s just so many concerning issues that are just… There’s so many red flags that just stand out, so many things that I’ve pointed out, things that really bothered me that were said, that were done…
TRICIA GRIFFITH Do you think that the friends at the restaurant are in on the cover up?
PAT BROWN Well they would have, they would have to be if this is what happened. They would have had to try to help their friends. A lot of people can’t understand how this would have gone down. But here’s what, here’s where I think this could be true. Err, and this again is a theory but this is like something that can happen with friends. Lets say you’re really good friends. Right you’re all, you’re buddies, you know, and you’re on vacation and you all do the same thing which is leave the kids alone in the room. You’re all taking the same risks. When, if something happened to Madeleine well they’re obviously gonna say, “Oh my God, that could have happened to me too. Oh my God. I did the exact same thing. We’re guilty of neglect as well. We neglected our kids too. So we’re not any different than they are. Only they got, they got unlucky.” Now lets say it did happen that way. Now that the McCanns are panicked, everything is Oh my God, you know. What’s gonna happen to us? You know they’re gonna charge us with homicide. They’re gonna charge us with manslaughter. They’re gonna charge us with child neglect. They’re gonna take our kids away from us. We’re gonna lose our medical licences. Our whole lives are gonna be destroyed.” Now it is possible because there were such emotional stuff going on that they said, “Look, you know, please just help us out. You know, we don’t want to go to jail in a foreign country. We don’t want our two kids taken away. What about Sean and Amelie? You know, please help us out.” And the friends say, “Okay, well we’ll just say… Well Jane can say, ‘You know, I’ll say I saw some guy.’ And everyone says, ‘Okay, I’ll say I checked on your kids. We’ll say you were at the restaurant at that time.’” Thats all they have to do and they think they are just helping out. “You know, we’re not really doing much lying. We’re just gonna say, ‘You know, I came and checked on the kids. They were there at that time and, you know, you came back to the restaurant at this time.’” Thats it. They’re not moving a body, they’re not getting involved in any other way. They’re little, tiny, small lies. Now, here’s the problem. If you actually agree to do that right in the moment of emotion as time goes on what are you going to do? Do you suddenly rat everybody out, rat out the McCanns?
TRICIA GRIFFITH Well, I, I, you know…
PAT BROWN Rat out yourself, you know what I mean?
TRICIA GRIFFITH You know, you know so much more about human nature than I do, Pat and I’m not trying to challenge you because it wouldn’t be a challenge. You’d just ****. But…
PAT BROWN Well you can challenge me. And by the way I want to point out there’s a woman who has… I don’t know if she’s a woman or a male but I always thought it was a female because its a female name. But there’s a woman who has posted on the Internet. Jayelles. She has posted Jayelles rebuttal to Pat Brown and she’s gone through and, you know, stated all the reasons she thinks I’m wrong. And, err, I think she’s taken some things out of context, erm, you know, of what I said and why I said it, so I think some of that, you know, you have to read my profile to know what the context was and then read her rebuttal and, err, I want to say right up front I don’t object to her rebuttal at all.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Hmm, hmm.
PAT BROWN I think that she has just as much right to write a rebuttal, a rebuttal about what I, what my theory is as I have a right to write a theory. And I think, side by side, this is useful because, you know, in general, you know, it encourages discussion. Err, it makes people say, Hey, what’s right, what do we think could have happened?” You know, I don’t see any problem with it. Some people think I am really like, really upset because this woman wrote a rebuttal and I’m like it works for me. I don’t have an issue with that. I believe in freedom of speech. (LAUGHTER) You know, ****.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Well that… I’m glad to hear you say that. Thats a, thats, that shows your integrity, Pat. I think thats very cool. But I just don’t think eight people would do this. Erm, because I think somebody in that group and I don’t know, where they all close? I don’t know, while Gerry’s running around trying to…
PAT BROWN They were very close.
TRICIA GRIFFITH … trying to get rid of the body. That somebody in that group would just say, “This is baloney” and, you know, “This is crap. I’m not gonna perjure myself. I’m not gonna get involved in this”. I don’t see eight people coming together and doing that.
PAT BROWN Right. A lot of people don’t. You’re not alone, Tricia. A lot of people think that wouldn’t happen. I do believe it can happen. You know, I don’t have an issue with that at all. I think, I say these, these… You know what they might have said was very minor. I think they might have said the very minor thing and once you get the ball rolling I think then people just don’t know how to back off of it and they’re like, “Well I don’t want to go to jail either. I don’t want to rat people out.” You know “Then they’re gonna charge me with something.” And time just goes on, you know, time goes on. You know, you just kinda get stuck into your story. I understand how it seems like, oh wow, thats just impossible. There’s another thinking here. You might agree with this as well. Some people say if she, if Gerry and Kate were involved in this in any way you would think they would just go away quietly, they wouldn’t start a big campaign.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Hmm, hmm.
PAT BROWN And a lot of people say, they don’t believe it, they would be quiet people. But I have also seen guilty people start, you know, go out in front of cameras, speak up, “I didn’t do it. I’m…”, you know. And do all kinds of stuff that you would not expect them to do when they were guilty.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Its interesting…
PAT BROWN I’ve seen enough, yeah, human nature to know that, that I can’t trust as being something that completely eliminates somebody in my opinion.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Its interesting that we can… Everybody can look at the exact same thing thats black and white and come away with a totally different interpretation. So, erm well, Pat, I thank you for explaining all of this because I had some questions. I do want to say though, because this is kind of important to me that I discovered this, erm, yes the McCanns have not taken a polygraph but they don’t give polygraphs in Europe. And so I don’t, I don’t think it…
PAT BROWN They don’t have to take one. No, I’m not saying they have, you know… They don’t have to take one. All I am saying is it would behove them to do it just because it would, they could say, “Look it isn’t a requirement. Our countries don’t do it but I’d like to do it anyway because people suspect that we’re liars so lets do it. I don’t have anything to hide. Lets do it.” Yeah, there’s a lot of things they don’t have to do like Kate had the right to have a lawyer. She had the right not to answer those questions but it doesn’t make you look good. (LAUGHTER). (1.06.45 / 1.41.07)
TRICIA GRIFFITH Right, exactly.
PAT BROWN So, you know, thats my concern. When you, if you really, really want the police to back off and to say you’re not, there’s, you know, they’re really looking for that **** been abducted I would think you should do everything and make sure they look in that direction. You know I find that strange behaviour.
LEVI PAGE Is there the possibility that they could have already taken a polygraph because they could hide a private polygrapher? They could have taken a polygraph. They could have signed, you know, confidentiality agreements with their attorney and, they could have failed. Because I think if they would’ve had the polygraph they would’ve been showing it around saying, “Pat Brown you are wrong. All of these people on the Internet who think we may have had something to do with this, are suspicious of us in any way, you’re wrong, lookee here.” So they could’ve taken one. We don’t know if they did not.
PAT BROWN True. But, you know, I never trust the private ones, so yeah. But, you’re right, they probably would have said that. Its just one of many things, Tricia, too. I mean, you know, its like the evidence, you know, its not just about one thing. Its about many things. Its not just about one thing that they could do. Its about the many things that they could do, erm, that would, I just think, you know, if they’re innocent of being involved in anything that the handling of this has been poor, in my opinion, from the beginning. I wrote about that for four years on the blogs. They drove me nuts. Every time I saw them I’m like either you’re guilty of something or you’re just being really stupid and you’re getting really, really bad advice.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Yeah.
PAT BROWN Like the coloboma in her eye, you know, the whole campaign showing the distorted eye, the distorted pupil, you know, the defect in her eye. I think that was a big campaign thing. Well, hey, if you want to make sure your kid is dead, thats a good way to do it because if I’m a kidnapper and you put that stuff out and point out her eye like that, I’m gonna kill that kid.
TRICIA GRIFFITH And see I would think just the opposite, that they wouldn’t… You see we have to put information out there or we’ll never find them. I think that if…
PAT BROWN But there’s certain kinds of information that will get your kid killed and thats one of them that would do it because its so specific. You can’t hide the kid without that eye thing getting in the way.
TRICIA GRIFFITH I see what you mean.
PAT BROWN So, it would scare, it would scare a kidnapper immediately into doing that. I mean, I would, I might do that later. I might look, try that kind of campaign later on but, you know, at the beginning I would be doing… Yeah, I know a lot of people I think unfortunately, probably don’t… Most of them people are dead thats why it doesn’t really make any difference, you know.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Right, right.
PAT BROWN You’re trying to find the killer, not just you’re kid alive. You wanna find the person who killed your, your child or your, your daughter or son or whatever but, yeah I say there’s a lot of things I say they’ve handled, err, my mouth has just dropped open when I’ve watched them. I think who is advising these people because it just, it just… I mean, one could say they’re very successful because they’ve made millions off this fund. I mean they’ve really got, I’m not sure how much money so I may not over exaggerate but they’ve made a lot of money on that fund and I don’t know what that fund has done to find Madeleine. Err, but so maybe they have been successful on that. They’ve been successful in all the law, with Carter Ruck which is their lawyers, enabled them to shut down people from saying anything. People are terrified of Carter Ruck. They’ve got, they’ve given cease and desist letters to blogs, blogs have been given cease and desist letters too and, of course, they shut Amaral down and now his appeal he’s won on that, I believe, but they got an injunction on his book. Now they’ve gone to, Carter Ruck has gone to Amazon to have, you know, my book removed. The McCanns are trying to shut down anybody who might suggest that it wasn’t an abduction. And they’re spending all their time doing that. Erm, I think if I were in their shoes, again I’d say, “Look, we didn’t do anything. We’re innocent but I can understand why you might think that. We did neglect our children. We left our children alone and unattended. That was terribly wrong of us. We were so wrong. We were selfish. We didn’t consider what would happen. We were terribly selfish. Erm, and there is no evidence of an abduction, just that Madeleine is gone so I understand why people suspect us. I don’t harbour any ill will towards them. I understand they’re gonna talk, they’re gonna go over the evidence like crazy because they can’t understand how this all happened. I get it but I’m gonna do everything again to clear our names so we can go out there and find who we believed kidnapped Madeleine.” Thats what I would have done. Instead of suing everybody. **** everybody down and saying anybody who dares to say anything is a horrible human being. I think their behaviour is kind of terrible. If I were their advisor I would say, you know, I wouldn’t act that way. But thats the way I think about that and maybe somebody else has advised them differently, maybe other people view it in some way and its like you say, people sometimes look at things from a very different point of view.
TRICIA GRIFFITH That is absolutely true, absolutely. Err, you know, I might look at it and go, well, you know, they want their child too. They think their child is alive and maybe they don’t want… I mean, I wouldn’t sue anybody, I wouldn’t do that, I just, I wouldn’t. But, I’m thinking. I’m trying to look at it from their point of view. Maybe, they think, you know, we need to be talking about her being alive and not dead but I don’t know. You very well could…
PAT BROWN They may think that but it doesn’t, you know, just because you’ve had a misfortune doesn’t mean you should be able to control the entire world.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Well you’re right, you’re right.
PAT BROWN They have had more…. This child has been seen by more people. She’s the most well-known missing child in the entire world. This child has had more money than almost any… I can’t… I don’t know any child who’s had this much money looking for her so I think she’s the most looked for child in the world, the most financially supported missing child in the world. They have nothing to complain about. There’s a ton of children out there. We don’t know their faces, there’s no campaign, nothing.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Absolutely, I agree with that.
PAT BROWN And so its like the continuing… One of the things that the McCanns come across is being extremely self-centred, very, very narcissistic, selfish in a way. I understand its your child and you wanna do that but I’ve seen a lot of other people out there. You take a look, you take a look at Natalie’s mother, right. She’s working for other children. John Walsh worked for other children. Marc Klaas is working for other children. They, they do love their children and want their children found and want their guy prosecuted but they didn’t just ignore every other child in the world and think everybody has to pay attention to their child and their child only. I didn’t see that coming from any of them.
TRICIA GRIFFITH Yeah, right. They are an amazing group of people. You know what. I can’t believe we’ve taken up almost two hours.
And Pat Brown not even knowing how to pronounce Madeleine, has she never watched any of the videos of Kate and Gerry saying their daughter’s name.
TRICIA GRIFFITH (1.50.16) I know. This has been very, very interesting and very helpful. I mean I’ve learned a lot about the case tonight. Madeleine, right. I’ve always called her Madeleine. Its MadeLINE right?
PAT BROWN Well I should think its MadeLINE. (LAUGHTER)
TRICIA GRIFFITH Okay.
PAT BROWN Yeah. Thats how I think she’s pronounced.